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  1. #1
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    Help settling an argument

    This was posted for "***** and giggles" by someone in the Cubs forum. I then basically disagreed and said this was pretty lopsided for the Cubs and basically getting beaten up for it. So I am looking for some unbiased opinion

    O's send

    Bundy
    Wieters
    Harvey

    Cubs Send

    Samardzija
    W. Castillo
    Szczur
    Vogelbach
    Underwood

    not trying to bring up any names or bash anymore... really just curious if I am really that off base in my opinion

  2. #2
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    Hmm.. I assume you mean JJ Hardy because the only Harvey on the east coast plays for the Mets & he aint going anywhere anytime soon.. Hmmm.. Underwood is probably the Cubs draftee from a couple years ago?

    Okay.. so.. the trade..

    Start with the Cubs side.. Underwood/Vogey/Szczur are useless to the O's this year.. perhaps forever. They are Cubs either formerly hyped or overhyped prospects/suspects.. None of these guys would be considered of any consequence to the immediate needs of the O's nor would they be missed by the Cubs organization. Clearly not now.. perhaps never.. Wellington Castillo is a good backstop that may have figured it out.. he'd be a starter on most second division teams and be fighting for a roster spot on most playoff teams.. Samardzija is clearly the star of the trade from what the Cubs "give up" His two years will either solidify a rotation that already has a staff ace... or he's a two year and gone waste or three productive / quality players..

    NO WAY DO THE O's trade Bundy..

    NO WAY DO THE O's include Wieters..

    I have no idea why the Cubs would want JJ Hardy.. none.. zero..zip... I wouldn't hazard a guess what a trade from the O's to the Cubs would look like that included Bundy.. Start with some combination that includes Bryant.... ..but as you've presented this deal.. the Cubbie fans almost RABID praise of "the SHARK" goes beyond reasonable and is founded in this ridiculous trade of two all stars and one of the most promising front of the rotation prospects in all of baseball for a two year rental, an average catcher and three prospect/suspects.

    That's the way it can be seen.. I'm sure there will be other opinions rendered...

    They're delusional!!.. that's why they're Cubbie fans..

  3. #3
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    As an Os fan there's no way in hell I'd want them to give up 2 of their top pitching prospects when that's easily our weakest position. We don't need average position prospects when we have among the best defense and offense in baseball.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeronimoSon View Post
    Hmm.. I assume you mean JJ Hardy because the only Harvey on the east coast plays for the Mets & he aint going anywhere anytime soon.. Hmmm.. Underwood is probably the Cubs draftee from a couple years ago?

    Okay.. so.. the trade..

    Start with the Cubs side.. Underwood/Vogey/Szczur are useless to the O's this year.. perhaps forever. They are Cubs either formerly hyped or overhyped prospects/suspects.. None of these guys would be considered of any consequence to the immediate needs of the O's nor would they be missed by the Cubs organization. Clearly not now.. perhaps never.. Wellington Castillo is a good backstop that may have figured it out.. he'd be a starter on most second division teams and be fighting for a roster spot on most playoff teams.. Samardzija is clearly the star of the trade from what the Cubs "give up" His two years will either solidify a rotation that already has a staff ace... or he's a two year and gone waste or three productive / quality players..

    NO WAY DO THE O's trade Bundy..

    NO WAY DO THE O's include Wieters..

    I have no idea why the Cubs would want JJ Hardy.. none.. zero..zip... I wouldn't hazard a guess what a trade from the O's to the Cubs would look like that included Bundy.. Start with some combination that includes Bryant.... ..but as you've presented this deal.. the Cubbie fans almost RABID praise of "the SHARK" goes beyond reasonable and is founded in this ridiculous trade of two all stars and one of the most promising front of the rotation prospects in all of baseball for a two year rental, an average catcher and three prospect/suspects.

    That's the way it can be seen.. I'm sure there will be other opinions rendered...

    They're delusional!!.. that's why they're Cubbie fans..
    LOL, Hunter Harvey is in the O's minor league system. Other than that I didn't read the original thread on the Cubs forum.

  5. #5
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    1. I assume this deal is Hunter Harvey, not J.J. Hardy, right?

    2. Shark is basically worth Weiters straight up, possibly worth a little more than Wieters, but it wouldn't be much.

    3. Castillo, while under-rated, isn't worth Bundy and Harvey along with Vogelbach....the other two don't matter any way.

    So I would say, if the O's retained Bundy.....and the Cubs kept Underwood and Speedy Szcur....then you might have a fair deal

    Shark+Castillo+Vogelbach for Harvey+Wieters.....seems closer, maybe O's send a low level spec, but def not Bundy.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    1. I assume this deal is Hunter Harvey, not J.J. Hardy, right?

    2. Shark is basically worth Weiters straight up, possibly worth a little more than Wieters, but it wouldn't be much.

    3. Castillo, while under-rated, isn't worth Bundy and Harvey along with Vogelbach....the other two don't matter any way.

    So I would say, if the O's retained Bundy.....and the Cubs kept Underwood and Speedy Szcur....then you might have a fair deal

    Shark+Castillo+Vogelbach for Harvey+Wieters.....seems closer, maybe O's send a low level spec, but def not Bundy.
    I disagree a bit. I agree on Wieters and Shark being pretty much a wash. Castillo and Vogel are worth more then Harvey though. Harvey is 19. Castillo just completed a 4.4 WAR season at age 26. Vogelbach isn't quite the same prospect as Harvey, but hes still a good prospect. I think Castillo is probably an average catcher, maybe a bit below average. But he proved me wrong last year.

    I don't see a fit here. Unless the O's wanted to do a Shark for Kevin Gausman framework, I doubt either side has much to discuss. Bundy is too much of a wildcard ATM; I just don't see the upside from an O's perspective for dealing him.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-ross12 View Post
    I disagree a bit. I agree on Wieters and Shark being pretty much a wash. Castillo and Vogel are worth more then Harvey though. Harvey is 19. Castillo just completed a 4.4 WAR season at age 26. Vogelbach isn't quite the same prospect as Harvey, but hes still a good prospect. I think Castillo is probably an average catcher, maybe a bit below average. But he proved me wrong last year.

    I don't see a fit here. Unless the O's wanted to do a Shark for Kevin Gausman framework, I doubt either side has much to discuss. Bundy is too much of a wildcard ATM; I just don't see the upside from an O's perspective for dealing him.
    Actually, you are right.


    Either way, I don't see this being a fit or a worthwhile move for either team.

  8. #8
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    Not saying this is going to happen


    I was just saying the guys in the cubs forum were overstating our value and understating o's


    Basically I called it lopsided towards the cubs


    I just wanted to see unbiased opinion on if I truly am looking at this wrong

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by petrey10 View Post
    Not saying this is going to happen


    I was just saying the guys in the cubs forum were overstating our value and understating o's


    Basically I called it lopsided towards the cubs


    I just wanted to see unbiased opinion on if I truly am looking at this wrong
    To me the trade proposal just doesn't make sense. The O's would be trading low on Bundy. Prospects rarely get traded for each other, so Harvey for our heap doesn't make much sense in that aspect. As a Cubs fan we basically traded our best starter and a decent young catcher for Wieters, which seems like a step back on the ML roster. Not that Wieters isn't talented but we just created another hole in a roster that looks like swiss cheese already.

    Bundy shouldn't be dealt. There just isn't any upside for the O's to do it.

    Value wise here it is.

    Shark - Mid rotation results, better stuff 200 innings guy who could play up, we'll see. Valuable.

    Castillo - Young catcher under control for a bit longer. Should be about average ML backstop. Maybe a bit lower.

    Szczur - 4th OF. Speed guy. Might play up and find a Bourn like profile but doubt it. Top 20 Cub prospect, probably top 15 if he was an O.

    Vogelbach - Probably a DH. Certainly a 1B if he's anything on the field. Good bat. Will see if it translate in higher levels. Probably a 6 tool (out of 8) on both hit and power tools. Cubs top 10 prospect. Probably would sneak in the top 5 or 6ish range as an O.

    Underwood - Just a young arm to dream on. Could have a promising future, but who knows. Probably would fit in the O's top 20 somewhere.


    Wieters to me is similar value to Shark.

    Harvey is a fun 19 year old to dream on. Certainly a better prospect then Underwood, and better then Vogelbach. Probably a top 100 prospect, or will be.

    Bundy is the wildcard. Injured, and coming back from his injury isn't always 100%. Too hard to gauge for me ATM.

    I'll write it again, this deal just doesn't make sense for either side. The value part is hard to gauge as well, with the Bundy injury.

  10. #10
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    the orioles would laugh and hang up the minute bundy's name was brought up
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  11. #11
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    O's are taking it up the *** here. Bad trade for them. Shark is one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    O's are taking it up the *** here. Bad trade for them. Shark is one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball.
    this, Cubs would need to add Bryant to even be considered from the O's side.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkelly7 View Post
    this, Cubs would need to add Bryant to even be considered from the O's side.
    O's aren't trading bundy. they just aren't it doesn't matter who the cubs add
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  14. #14
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    Kris Bryant would suddenly become the best player involved in this deal.

    Honestly, the Cubs are getting a slightly better deal, but it's not by much. They are taking on a risk with Bundy. It's a relatively close deal in overall value, but would require a little more from the Cubs.

    A little more doesn't require a top 5 best offensive prospect in baseball (IMO he is).

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Kris Bryant would suddenly become the best player involved in this deal.

    Honestly, the Cubs are getting a slightly better deal, but it's not by much. They are taking on a risk with Bundy. It's a relatively close deal in overall value, but would require a little more from the Cubs.

    A little more doesn't require a top 5 best offensive prospect in baseball (IMO he is).
    I re-read this deal and it seems REAL risky for the Cubs. Harvey is 19 with risk of busting to begin with. Bundy is injured, so he's risky as well. Wieters is a Boras client, so he's most likely going to hit FA. For the rebuilding Cubs, its quite possible they have nothing to show for it in 2 years.

    I honestly think the cubs might be better off moving Shark in a separate deal. We could also use those 3 prospects in different deals as well. Obviously if Bundy pans out and is an ace the whole discussion changes. I'll stick with my initial thought and say its a foolish trade for both sides.

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