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  1. #1
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    The Charlotte Bobcats are ranked #7 defensively, what's making them so good?

    Ofcourse we know that the likes of Deron Williams, Carmelo Anthony and LeBron James have dropped double nickels and plus on that defense. But it is still one of the best defense in the entire NBA. Who's making them this good. Is it a team combo thing? or is it a few players overperforming?

    Can Anthony Tolliver, Kemba Walker, Al Jefferson, Biyombo, CDR and Josh McRoberts be that underrated defensively? Is it the coaching staff's system or are these players really that good defensively and yet no one gives them their due?
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  2. #2
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    Steve Clifford, he's changed their defensive approach this season.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deception View Post
    Steve Clifford, he's changed their defensive approach this season.
    is there a specific system he's playing? I'm curious about this, b/c these players, are scabs...some aren't even known for their defense yet they are starting to move up the rankings.
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  4. #4
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    Well MKG is a defensive stud, and Biyombo is leading the league in rim protection. honestly, if you have a team of just slightly above average defenders, you can be a top defense in this league. My Nuggets don't have a single above average defensive player this year and it shows.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by JEDean89 View Post
    Well MKG is a defensive stud, and Biyombo is leading the league in rim protection. honestly, if you have a team of just slightly above average defenders, you can be a top defense in this league. My Nuggets don't have a single above average defensive player this year and it shows.
    here's the thing, MKG really isn't all that good this year defensively. He's actually underachieving.
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  6. #6
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    1.yes those guys were/are underrated defensively
    but it as to do with the coach ,his schemes and getting them to buy in and give effort

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by abe_froman View Post
    1.yes those guys were/are underrated defensively
    but it as to do with the coach ,his schemes and getting them to buy in and give effort
    what's he doing w/ McRoberts on the PnR, I notice he's good guarding that. And I see Zeller is too. So is Jefferson.
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  8. #8
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    Its definitely not because of Al Jefferson, Ill tell you that much. The guy is trying harder than ever but that defense was strong with him gone and he has seemingly made it abit worse via on/off stats, MKG and Biyombo beast together tho. Must be good coaching but Kemba Walker is prolly the underrated guy defensively. Also, when did Deron score his 50? Wasnt it when the Bobcats sucked on D.

    People can look at the explosions but on rare nights when superstars can do no wrong, no type of defense will deter them much and all year the Bobcats have held individuals from scoring. That and they play in the East so some of that defensive rating is superficially enhanced by them playing lesser teams. Adjusted numbers might look somewhat different.
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  9. #9
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    It's pretty fascinating for sure. Clifford deserves a ton of props at the very least.

    Looking at the 4 factors...

    They're tremendous at not fouling with a .185 free throw rate, 4th best in the league.
    They're the best defensive rebounding team in the league, tied with the Pacers at the top
    They don't, however, force many turnovers, ranking 25th with a 12.9 TOV%
    They're only a tad above league average in opponent eFG%, ranking 11th with a 49.3% mark


    Jefferson remains a negative defender. Above all else, I agree with Chronz that he deserves very little, if any at all, credit for the turnaround. He grades out poorly wherever you look...be it on/off stats, advanced plus/minus stats, or whatever. It mostly has to be coming from the outside, which is very rare. Usually effective defenses are built from the inside out.

    It's very interesting, but they've sustained it for long enough for it not to be an obvious fluke. A tremendous turnaround. Almost impossible to believe.

  10. #10
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    AL Jefferson and the coaching staff have made a huge difference.

    Big Al is getting over a block and steal a game. That helps. He's not a great anchor like Noah, Hibbert, Dwight or Marc Gasol, but he does make a positive impact in some respects.

    Ben Gordon getting less minutes helps... because of his size he could be a liability on defense.

    Walker and Hendersn have brought their fouls down a little, and Jefferson is getting less than the guys he replaced. That puts the opponents on the line less, which helps. I'm not sure if that follow through with the other players though.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    AL Jefferson and the coaching staff have made a huge difference.

    Big Al is getting over a block and steal a game. That helps. He's not a great anchor like Noah, Hibbert, Dwight or Marc Gasol, but he does make a positive impact in some respects.
    A single block in however many minutes he plays isn't even above his positional average rate IIRC, if its not, then how does that really help?

    How can you say hes made a huge impact when this defensive identity was first established with him gone and we've seen the team play better defensively with him on the bench? Biyombo prolly has more to do with it than he does, I mean you cite a single block for Al Jefferson but Biyombo gets that single block in roughly half the minutes. I can see the argument for Al Jefferson going from a complete detriment defensively (for years, as he has personally admitted) to being average, but to say hes a driving force is laughable IMO. We may have to agree to disagree again, but just how exactly are you measuring his defensive impact.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    A single block in however many minutes he plays isn't even above his positional average rate IIRC, if its not, then how does that really help?

    How can you say hes made a huge impact when this defensive identity was first established with him gone and we've seen the team play better defensively with him on the bench? Biyombo prolly has more to do with it than he does, I mean you cite a single block for Al Jefferson but Biyombo gets that single block in roughly half the minutes. I can see the argument for Al Jefferson going from a complete detriment defensively (for years, as he has personally admitted) to being average, but to say hes a driving force is laughable IMO. We may have to agree to disagree again, but just how exactly are you measuring his defensive impact.
    I would never suggest that Jefferson is an All-Defensive team candidate, but you have to compare him to what they had last year at that position. If there is an improvement, you have to look at everything. Byron Mullens started 41 games for them last year, and he was averaging more fouls and less blocks and steals per36 than Jefferson. It might only be a little help, but it is a difference. Biyomo gets more blocks, but he also gets WAY more fouls. So simply having contested shots instead of fouls is a help. And Tyrus Thomas was also posting a lot of fouls. Some of these guys played minutes at C and PF, but regardless, Jefferson is doing something these guys weren't doing.


    I think Jefferson is underrated, but that said, I wouldn't EVER suggest he was an elite defender, just that he was an improvement on what they had.

    Oh, and he gets more offensive rebounds than Mullens ;-)


    But seriously, compared to what they had, Jefferson is getting more rebounds, blocks and steals and less personal fouls. So yeah, that is an improvement.

    I didn't use the words 'driving' force, I said he's made a huge difference, and compared to a guy like Mullens he is.

    Biyombo is an interesting player, but you mention his blocks and NOT his fouls and steals.


    Biyombo averages 3 blocks/steals per36 and 3.8 fouls in that time. Jefferson averages 2.2 steals/blocks to 2.7. Not that far off in terms of ratio, but Jefferson is on the floor a lot more than Biyombo. And Jefferson's commits a total of 1.1 fewer fouls per36 than Biyombo.

    I'm not saying Jefferson is a defensive wizard, merely that Jefferson is a huge reason why this team has improved, overall more so, but even on defense he is a step up from the options they had last year.


    You can't say "Boyombo is the difference". He was there last year. If he is the difference, and hasn't improved much (his fouls are up and his steals are down), then why weren't the Bobcats doing this last year?

    You gotta look at what is different, not what is the same. Has there been slight improvement with Henderson, Walker and Boyombo? Yes. The coaching staff is completely different and Jefferson is completely different.

    Walker, Henderson, Biombo and MKG are the same.


    Did I mention the offensive rebounds? Oh, and Jefferson is making more shots than the guys they had last year, which allows the team to actually get back on defense since the opposing team has to inbound. The best defense is a good offense.
    Last edited by JasonJohnHorn; 03-06-2014 at 01:44 PM.
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  13. #13
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    Teams are producing a PPP average of 0.80 vs Al Jefferson.

    To clear this notion that he's not doing much.

    Opp. are shooting 38% against him
    Opp. on the post are shooting 34% on him
    Opp. on the PnR, specifically the roll man are shooting 31%

    I can't buy that he's doing nothing. Maybe he's poor in other areas but his strengths defensively should not be ignored.
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  14. #14
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    well, they can have off nights but more likely than not, those three mentioned players went off becuase they just went off. Someone made a good analysis when Lebron scored his share of points against them because he had no dunks and he made a plethora of jumpers. can't stop a player when he's on extreme fire, no matter how good your team defense is.



  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by koreancabbage View Post
    well, they can have off nights but more likely than not, those three mentioned players went off becuase they just went off. Someone made a good analysis when Lebron scored his share of points against them because he had no dunks and he made a plethora of jumpers. can't stop a player when he's on extreme fire, no matter how good your team defense is.
    Something went horribly wrong in CHA's D that night.

    20 uncontested shots, he made 13 of them. The whole night he had 13 contested shots and drilled 9 of them.
    when they forget what Kevin Long saids

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