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  1. #1
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    The Need for a Stretch Big Man

    I highly recommend this read if you interested in a different perspective on how we can improve. I took a good amount of time and thought on this topic and really believe it's an important aspect in winning games in the NBA. I numbered the topics I cover below to make it easier to read. Here is the outline of this thread:

    1. Beginning statement/Main idea of the article.
    2. The top 16 team's stretch big men with quick descriptions on their individual impact.
    3. Where the Pistons stand compared to these teams.
    4. Advice to Dumars


    1. Currently, every top NBA team have a big man who can stretch the floor from at least 10 to 15 ft from the basket. Obviously, these top teams have more than just these players that are key to their success. Although, it's clear that without these players, the teams would clearly be less successful. Let's look at each of the top 16 teams' PF/C in the league to prove my point.


    2. Thunder - Serge Ibaka - Team obviously lead by Durant but Ibaka provides elite defense and a mid range shot that he can consistently make.

    Pacers - David West - Doesn't have to score big numbers thanks to the well built
    team, although, his mid range shot adds that extra element that every elite team
    needs.

    Spurs - Tim Duncan - Best PF to ever play, does it all for his team but his excellent
    mid range game solidifies the Spurs near perfect team.

    Heat - Chris Bosh - Skilled offensive player who was important to LeBron winning his first couple of rings due to his versatility and range on his shot.

    Trail Blazers - LaMarcus Aldridge - Key piece to the Blazers success because of his
    extremely efficient offensive game. Best 15 ft shooting PF in the game.

    Clippers - Blake Griffin - He's been able to lead his team to W's without CP3 thanks
    to his multiple ways to score. Starting to have a consistent shooting touch from mid range. Key to the Clips success.

    Rockets - Terrence Jones - Obviously not the main reason to their success but he
    has fit perfect next to Dwight. Jones is able to stay out of the paint on offensive possessions to make space for Dwight and shoot it if needed.

    Suns - Channing Frye/Markieff Morris - Two very good shooters from not only 10-15
    but from behind the arc. They add a great dynamic to the guard led team.

    Warriors - David Lee - Smart player when he receives the ball in the 10-15 ft range.
    He will drive/post up/shoot it on you.

    Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki - Another hall of famer at the PF position that we all know.
    Key to the Mavs success.

    Grizzlies - Zach Randoph/Marc Gasol - Maybe the perfect combo at PF and C. Both stretch the floor and that's why they have seen the playoffs often.

    Raptors - Patrick Patterson/Jonas Val - JVal has a shot but doesn't use it quite often. Patterson keeps teams honest with his shot ability. Guard powered team.

    Hawks - Paul Millsap/Al Horford - Two very mobile and skill big men that can play offense from anywhere within the arc. Millsap has even added a 3pt shot. Keys to Hawks success.

    Wizards - Nene Hilario - The Wiz are a guard led team but Nene's versatile offense
    adds a punch.

    Bulls - Carlos Boozer - Emotional anchor for the Bulls. Keeps his team strong mentally and his 15 ft baseline shot is deadly.

    T'Wolves - Kevin Love - The ultimate stretch PF who can shoot from anywhere on the court. He is the key to their success

    3. With the players above in mind, think of the Pistons roster, who actually do have loads of talent. Use the Pistons as an example of why a big man who can stretch it to 10 or 15 ft is so important. They have the versatile Josh Smith but he hasn't been able to hit his shot on an consistent basis this year. Greg Monroe really has no mid range shot at all and neither does Andre. Thus, the paint becomes overly packed when Drummond already resides there with his defender making our offense very predictable.

    There isn't quite a player like any of ones I listed above. Greg Monroe is a great center who excels under the basket, though it is problematic because that is exactly where Andre Drummond needs to be. Josh Smith has shown signs of how good he can be when he keeps his offensive game within the 15 ft range but that's extremely hard to maintain when he's required to play SF.

    4. My advice to the Joe Dumars is to find that package deal in which Monroe is shipped and you can bring in that player that slides Smith to PF and fills the vacancy at SF. This trade package could be centered around Arron Afflalo, Harrison Barnes, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, or maybe even Danny Granger. Another suggestion is to find a package deal for a PF to play next to Drummond who is a consistent mid or 3 point range shooter. My preferences would be Kevin Love, Nikola Vucevic, Ersan Ilyasova, Spencer Hawes, or Ryan Anderson.

    Eventually the "promise, youth, and potential" factor has to be thrown out the window on Greg Monroe and realize, what ya see is what ya get. The pairing of Monroe and Drummond just won't work unless Monroe can space the floor. If we resign Monroe, we could be waiting around a long time for that to happen.

    Come on Dumars, why does it require a FAN to realize this? If you want to win without a surefire all star/superstar, though I think Drummond is close, you need to be able to construct a suitable team.


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  2. #2
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    It's not even just the bigs, we barely have any floor stretchers at any position, it's so annoying.

    Also, we seem so much slower than every other team, I don't even know how to describe it

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuySir View Post
    It's not even just the bigs, we barely have any floor stretchers at any position, it's so annoying.

    Also, we seem so much slower than every other team, I don't even know how to describe it
    I agree, we need athleticism and shooting on the wing for sure but this is just another element I have observed from winning teams.


    NBA'S Next Most Dominant Big Man
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGvryuQDtWA
    FIND ME ON TWITTER @pistons_talk

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBadBoy View Post
    I highly recommend this read if you interested in a different perspective on how we can improve. I took a good amount of time and thought on this topic and really believe it's an important aspect in winning games in the NBA. I numbered the topics I cover below to make it easier to read. Here is the outline of this thread:

    1. Beginning statement/Main idea of the article.
    2. The top 16 team's stretch big men with quick descriptions on their individual impact.
    3. Where the Pistons stand compared to these teams.
    4. Advice to Dumars


    1. Currently, every top NBA team have a big man who can stretch the floor from at least 10 to 15 ft from the basket. Obviously, these top teams have more than just these players that are key to their success. Although, it's clear that without these players, the teams would clearly be less successful. Let's look at each of the top 16 teams' PF/C in the league to prove my point.


    2.Thunder - Serge Ibaka - Team obviously lead by Durant but Ibaka provides elite defense and a mid range shot that he can consistently make.

    Pacers - David West - Doesn't have to score big numbers thanks to the well built
    team, although, his mid range shot adds that extra element that every elite team
    needs.

    Spurs - Tim Duncan - Best PF to ever play, does it all for his team but his excellent
    mid range game solidifies the Spurs near perfect team.

    Heat - Chris Bosh - Skilled offensive player who was important to LeBron winning his first couple of rings due to his versatility and range on his shot.

    Trail Blazers - LaMarcus Aldridge - Key piece to the Blazers success because of his
    extremely efficient offensive game. Best 15 ft shooting PF in the game.

    Clippers - Blake Griffin - He's been able to lead his team to W's without CP3 thanks
    to his multiple ways to score. Starting to have a consistent shooting touch from mid range. Key to the Clips success.

    Rockets - Terrence Jones - Obviously not the main reason to their success but he
    has fit perfect next to Dwight. Jones is able to stay out of the paint on offensive possessions to make space for Dwight and shoot it if needed.

    Suns - Channing Frye/Markieff Morris - Two very good shooters from not only 10-15
    but from behind the arc. They add a great dynamic to the guard led team.

    Warriors - David Lee - Smart player when he receives the ball in the 10-15 ft range.
    He will drive/post up/shoot it on you.

    Mavericks - Dirk Nowitzki - Another hall of famer at the PF position that we all know.
    Key to the Mavs success.

    Grizzlies - Zach Randoph/Marc Gasol - Maybe the perfect combo at PF and C. Both stretch the floor and that's why they have seen the playoffs often.

    Raptors - Patrick Patterson/Jonas Val - JVal has a shot but doesn't use it quite often. Patterson keeps teams honest with his shot ability. Guard powered team.

    Hawks - Paul Millsap/Al Horford - Two very mobile and skill big men that can play offense from anywhere within the arc. Millsap has even added a 3pt shot. Keys to Hawks success.

    Wizards - Nene Hilario - The Wiz are a guard led team but Nene's versatile offense
    adds a punch.

    Bulls - Carlos Boozer - Emotional anchor for the Bulls. Keeps his team strong mentally and his 15 ft baseline shot is deadly.

    T'Wolves - Kevin Love - The ultimate stretch PF who can shoot from anywhere on the court. He is the key to their success

    3. With the players above in mind, think of the Pistons roster, who actually do have loads of talent. Use the Pistons as an example of why a big man who can stretch it to 10 or 15 ft is so important. They have the versatile Josh Smith but he hasn't been able to hit his shot on an consistent basis this year. Greg Monroe really has no mid range shot at all and neither does Andre. Thus, the paint becomes overly packed when Drummond already resides there with his defender making our offense very predictable.

    There isn't quite a player like any of ones I listed above. Greg Monroe is a great center who excels under the basket, though it is problematic because that is exactly where Andre Drummond needs to be. Josh Smith has shown signs of how good he can be when he keeps his offensive game within the 15 ft range but that's extremely hard to maintain when he's required to play SF.

    4. My advice to the Joe Dumars is to find that package deal in which Monroe is shipped and you can bring in that player that slides Smith to PF and fills the vacancy at SF. This trade package could be centered around Arron Afflalo, Harrison Barnes, Eric Gordon, Trevor Ariza, or maybe even Danny Granger. Another suggestion is to find a package deal for a PF to play next to Drummond who is a consistent mid or 3 point range shooter. My preferences would be Kevin Love, Nikola Vucevic, Ersan Ilyasova, Spencer Hawes, or Ryan Anderson.

    Eventually the "promise, youth, and potential" factor has to be thrown out the window on Greg Monroe and realize, what ya see is what ya get. The pairing of Monroe and Drummond just won't work unless Monroe can space the floor. If we resign Monroe, we could be waiting around a long time for that to happen.

    Come on Dumars, why does it require a FAN to realize this? If you want to win without a surefire all star/superstar, though I think Drummond is close, you need to be able to construct a suitable team.
    You ignore the fact that, when Monroe and Drummond played together for 20ish games last year, they played very well together. Moose would oop and pass to Drummond very effectively. It's because literally no one on our starting line up can hit more than 30% of their threes that Monroe and Drummond cannot operate together, not because they can't coexist. Monroe is so good in the post, with such good footwork, that one person cannot guard him. And he is such a good passer that he gets Drummond easy baskets (such as the two great passes that caught Drummond wide open in this game alone. One leading to a basket, one leading to free throws.) You're using available data to create a complex solution to a simple problem: You have to be able to have wings shoot 3s. Smith, Singler/KCP, Jennings all shooting at like 30% will lead to everyone cheating in the paint. Drummond and Monroe can exist and you would have to be blind to not be able to see that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ACanadian View Post
    Nope Val shot better from the FT line, that cancels out all other stats.
    Toronto fan on why JVal is better than Drummond.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomenonsense View Post
    You ignore the fact that, when Monroe and Drummond played together for 20ish games last year, they played very well together. Moose would oop and pass to Drummond very effectively. It's because literally no one on our starting line up can hit more than 30% of their threes that Monroe and Drummond cannot operate together, not because they can't coexist. Monroe is so good in the post, with such good footwork, that one person cannot guard him. And he is such a good passer that he gets Drummond easy baskets (such as the two great passes that caught Drummond wide open in this game alone. One leading to a basket, one leading to free throws.) You're using available data to create a complex solution to a simple problem: You have to be able to have wings shoot 3s. Smith, Singler/KCP, Jennings all shooting at like 30% will lead to everyone cheating in the paint. Drummond and Monroe can exist and you would have to be blind to not be able to see that.

    Kevin Love & JJ Berera for Stuck/CV/Moose

    Minn has only 3.5M expiring contracts this summer, so they aren't going to get anyone to help Love who can opt out next summer. With Stuck & CV, they add 16M to that figure.

    We get a stretch 4 to open the lane for JSmoove to drive more (if you believe the lane is clogged with Dre' 7 Moose), we get Berera to fill in Stuck's energy minutes off the bench and Bynum/CB pick up a few more minutes of what's left over.

    Though Flip Sanders is on record saying he won't trade Love, he isn't going to get anything for him next summer when he's a FA - unrestricted I believe.

    He can resign Moose and sell it to the fan base as Love would leave, they wouldn't get anything in return and cast him as the vilian.

    We get 1 1/2 years to sell Love on Det, he doesn't have to work as hard rebounding becuase of Dre' (though Pek in MN is no slouch).

    We flip JSmoove to Boston for Bass& J. Green.

    Boston gets Rondo his buddy in JSmoove, increasing the odds they can re-sign Rondo and have Sullinger and Olnyk at the 5.

    Hell, G Wallace & K. Bogan for JXmoove works and we'd get out from the money one year earlier. Bogans is a 35% career 3 pt %, though he sucked in 2010/11 at 25%.

  6. #6
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    man love and drummond would be to amazing i would even throw in a 2016 first round pick to get love here, and then somehow trade smith for a real small forward who plays man to man defense and can hit 3s
    POP! POP!

  7. #7
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    this team could win more games if they used a 3 man rotation with smith drummond and monroe its so annoying that the coaching staff won't even try it
    POP! POP!

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    i think people are giving up on kcp way to soon, he is going to be a very important part of this team down the line, but small forward is a huge huge need
    POP! POP!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomenonsense View Post
    You ignore the fact that, when Monroe and Drummond played together for 20ish games last year, they played very well together. Moose would oop and pass to Drummond very effectively. It's because literally no one on our starting line up can hit more than 30% of their threes that Monroe and Drummond cannot operate together, not because they can't coexist. Monroe is so good in the post, with such good footwork, that one person cannot guard him. And he is such a good passer that he gets Drummond easy baskets (such as the two great passes that caught Drummond wide open in this game alone. One leading to a basket, one leading to free throws.) You're using available data to create a complex solution to a simple problem: You have to be able to have wings shoot 3s. Smith, Singler/KCP, Jennings all shooting at like 30% will lead to everyone cheating in the paint. Drummond and Monroe can exist and you would have to be blind to not be able to see that.
    Look, I realize we need 3 point shooting, I do. I'm going to use the Clippers as an example. As a team, they shoot 4% better than us, the worst 3pt shooting team in the league. They are tied for the 4th worst 3pt shooting team but they have Blake Griffin, who has that extra element in his game. Which is the stretch/mid-range game. They were without Chris Paul for an extended period of time so you can't just credit him. It's not really a "complex solution" just to add a stretch big man. It's a fact that all top 16 teams possess one of some kind who is important to their success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dabiznazz View Post
    man love and drummond would be to amazing i would even throw in a 2016 first round pick to get love here, and then somehow trade smith for a real small forward who plays man to man defense and can hit 3s

    Agreed. Too bad Sanders is the GM, he'll never make a deal with the pistons.

    Flip JSmoove for Bass/Wallace or Bass/J.Green and we've got our 3 and a back up big.


    Cavs are trying to jettison Deng - Deng for JSmoove works also. But then we're stuck signing either Deng or Monroe - can't do both and have money for Dre' in two years.

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    You can't possibly compare our offense to the Clippers when they have CP3 and Collison, both of whom would start on our team, without even mentioning Crawford who is like Stuckey with a jumpshot and handles and who is actually good.

    You can't possibly say that we need to add stretch big men when we already have stretch big men who can't touch the floor. If adding "stretch big men" wasn't a complex solution, then it would be as simple as putting CV or Jorts out there and watching the team improve. You put out 16 teams that are better than us in a wide variety of ways, always including "Actually having a SF on the team", and looked for information that supports your opinion that Monroe does not work here.

    You make excuses for smith like saying "Hasn't been able to hit a shot THIS YEAR." when he has always shot under 35% outside of the paint (outside of like one year.) You're seriously saying that "smith is great in the 15ft range" when it is clearly evident by looking at the data he hasn't. Smith's shot chart for both THIS year AND last year (in his "all star snub" year), smith did not even hit shots at the league average anywhere besides directly under the rim.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...Season=2013-14

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...iewShots=false

    Compairing those two shot charts should clearly show who operates effectively. It didn't take a "fan" to "realize" anything here. You went on a damned witch hunt, tried to drag Monroe's name through the mud, and then didn't even think to compare Smith to your standards. It is obvious that Monroe is the person we should keep if you look at the data. And it isn't even close.


    Quote Originally Posted by ACanadian View Post
    Nope Val shot better from the FT line, that cancels out all other stats.
    Toronto fan on why JVal is better than Drummond.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by markbutter View Post
    Agreed. Too bad Sanders is the GM, he'll never make a deal with the pistons.

    Flip JSmoove for Bass/Wallace or Bass/J.Green and we've got our 3 and a back up big.


    Cavs are trying to jettison Deng - Deng for JSmoove works also. But then we're stuck signing either Deng or Monroe - can't do both and have money for Dre' in two years.
    Hah. There is never any point in pretending that ANYTHING we do with Monroe and any FAs this year will ever affect Dre. We are not ever giving up Dre while we have the choice in the matter. Someone will be traded away for peanuts in order to keep Dre.


    Quote Originally Posted by ACanadian View Post
    Nope Val shot better from the FT line, that cancels out all other stats.
    Toronto fan on why JVal is better than Drummond.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomenonsense View Post
    Hah. There is never any point in pretending that ANYTHING we do with Monroe and any FAs this year will ever affect Dre. We are not ever giving up Dre while we have the choice in the matter. Someone will be traded away for peanuts in order to keep Dre.
    Agreed. My point was, we'd have to either sign Monroe or Deng - or get incredible discounts - exactly because we aren't doing anything that would impact Dre'

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenomenonsense View Post
    You can't possibly compare our offense to the Clippers when they have CP3 and Collison, both of whom would start on our team, without even mentioning Crawford who is like Stuckey with a jumpshot and handles and who is actually good.

    You can't possibly say that we need to add stretch big men when we already have stretch big men who can't touch the floor. If adding "stretch big men" wasn't a complex solution, then it would be as simple as putting CV or Jorts out there and watching the team improve. You put out 16 teams that are better than us in a wide variety of ways, always including "Actually having a SF on the team", and looked for information that supports your opinion that Monroe does not work here.

    You make excuses for smith like saying "Hasn't been able to hit a shot THIS YEAR." when he has always shot under 35% outside of the paint (outside of like one year.) You're seriously saying that "smith is great in the 15ft range" when it is clearly evident by looking at the data he hasn't. Smith's shot chart for both THIS year AND last year (in his "all star snub" year), smith did not even hit shots at the league average anywhere besides directly under the rim.

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...Season=2013-14

    http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...iewShots=false

    Compairing those two shot charts should clearly show who operates effectively. It didn't take a "fan" to "realize" anything here. You went on a damned witch hunt, tried to drag Monroe's name through the mud, and then didn't even think to compare Smith to your standards. It is obvious that Monroe is the person we should keep if you look at the data. And it isn't even close.
    How are you going to quote me on something I didn't say? I never said Smith was amazing from 15 ft. I said Smith has shown signs of how good he can be if he keeps it within 15, shown signs. Definitely not saying Smith is our answer at PF but he's signed long term with us for now.

    Here's something you can quote me on though. Monroe and Drummond will never win a championship together. Take a look at the past 10 years of champions and their front court combos in the playoffs.

    LeBron-Bosh-Birdman (LeBron started as PF and played the point-forward roll)
    Battier-Bosh (Battier logged many PF minutes)
    Dirk-Chandler
    Gasol-Bynum
    Gasol-Bynum
    KG-Perkins
    Horry-Duncan
    Haslem-Shaq-Walker-Mourning
    Horry-Duncan
    Wallace-Wallace

    Do you not see a pattern? They all had a skilled, shooting big. Drummond is obviously our guy and Monroe is not skilled enough to complement him to become a championship team. So what's the point if not winning a championship?


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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBadBoy View Post
    How are you going to quote me on something I didn't say? I never said Smith was amazing from 15 ft. I said Smith has shown signs of how good he can be if he keeps it within 15, shown signs. Definitely not saying Smith is our answer at PF but he's signed long term with us for now.

    Here's something you can quote me on though. Monroe and Drummond will never win a championship together. Take a look at the past 10 years of champions and their front court combos in the playoffs.

    LeBron-Bosh-Birdman (LeBron started as PF and played the point-forward roll)
    Battier-Bosh (Battier logged many PF minutes)
    Dirk-Chandler
    Gasol-Bynum
    Gasol-Bynum
    KG-Perkins
    Horry-Duncan
    Haslem-Shaq-Walker-Mourning
    Horry-Duncan
    Wallace-Wallace

    Do you not see a pattern? They all had a skilled, shooting big. Drummond is obviously our guy and Monroe is not skilled enough to complement him to become a championship team. So what's the point if not winning a championship?
    You're so damn right. I once heard that players never improve. I also heard that getting more efficient, and making roughly the same amount of shot attempts while also shooting less in order to accommodate knuckleheads isn't getting better either. Certainly having to watch the game and see just how much better Monroe's footwork is this year compared to last year doesn't count as improvement either. Turning the ball over less is also something that he shouldn't get credit for improving. We should trade Drummond too because he isn't ready to lead this team to a championship either.

    Monroe will develop the jumper. Even if he doesn't it is worth holding onto him for four more years to make sure he doesn't develop one. Unless you think Drummond is ready to carry this team to a championship at 24.


    Quote Originally Posted by ACanadian View Post
    Nope Val shot better from the FT line, that cancels out all other stats.
    Toronto fan on why JVal is better than Drummond.

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