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  1. #1
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    How did Dumars make the HOF

    his numbers are a wee bit underwhelming.

    his peak appears to have lasted about 4 years. during which time he averaged:

    17.8 ppg
    5.3 apg
    2.6 rpg
    1.0 spg
    0.1 bpg

    his shooting efficiency was pretty strong as he regularly had a true shooting percentage around .550 but that total amount of output seems extremely low for a HOF player. his career PER of 15 is also shockingly low.

    was he an incredible defender? or is he basically carried into the HOF because of the 2 titles?
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 02-13-2014 at 03:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  2. #2
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    he is/was one of the best defense guards of all time and was the number 2 guy on title teams

    also,your 4 year peak average is wrong

    ppg-21
    apg-4.5
    rpg-2.2
    Last edited by abe_froman; 02-13-2014 at 03:19 PM.

  3. #3
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    His skills as a GM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by abe_froman View Post
    he is/was one of the best defense guards of all time and was the number 2 guy on title teams

    also,your 4 year peak average is wrong

    ppg-21
    apg-4.5
    rpg-2.2
    obviously we are counting different years. doesn't make much of a difference though does it? if this is the old 'rings are king' philosophy it looks pretty silly as time passes IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #5
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    he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

    Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #6
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    Dumars' peak years were between 91/94 = 21/2.0/4.5; 114 ORtg 55.1ts% 0.127 WS/48 24.0usg%

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    he was an all time defender, defensive leader of a top 3 defense for 3 finals runs, and the #2 guy on 2 titles teams, and a great team for many years.

    Remember as well, the Basketball HOF is a lot easier to make than the NFL, or MLB.
    that is definitely true.

    are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post

    are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.
    defense doesnt always show up in the stats sheet,its something you really have to see to gauge

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that is definitely true.

    are we limiting our evaluation of all-time defender to just man to man defense? having a large amount of steals doesn't make you a great defender but he has a surprisingly low total and he was non-existent on the defensive glass. just interested in your opinion on those things.
    I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

    He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

    And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  10. #10
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    Other guys have already said it, but you could look up anybody's list of the greatest perimeter defenders of all-time and you'll almost certainly see Joe Dumars' name toward the top. Throw that in with a guy who was consistently a solid, relatively efficient scoring option and the second best player on back-to-back championships, and the guy had a Hall-of-Fame worthy resume. He was also named the 89 Finals MVP, which certainly doesn't hurt.


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by abe_froman View Post
    defense doesnt always show up in the stats sheet,its something you really have to see to gauge
    I always thought he was overrated defensively, maybe biased from seeing how little he impacted it after the title years.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I watched him play a lot, and the dude was great at the point of attack, strong enough to bother even MJ, was very good at understanding how to keep players out of the paint, and rarely gambled. He had great rebounders underneath, and I believe Daly liked to keep his guards on the perimeter in case of leak out rebounds, to prevent open shots. One on one, he was one of the best defenders I have seen.

    He also had nice offensive production in the immediate years following his 2 title runs.

    And yeah, I have to keep pointing out, the Basketball HOF lets in anyone eventually. I mean, there was an outcry over Reggie Miller not making it right away, and when you look at his career, if you compared him to an NFL or MLB player, he is nowhere near HOF material. But he will get in.
    It's really odd to me that basketball has so many fewer athletes than football and baseball, yet has such lower standards for its Hall of Fame. Part of me wants to think it's because basketball players are just more accessible since they're not covered in gear, but that's also the case in baseball. I've come to the conclusion that I think it makes sense to have more players in the Basketball Hall of Fame for two reasons:

    1. The Basketball Hall of Fame also takes college play and international play into consideration.

    2. An individual basketball player just means more to a team than a single player does in another team sport. You take away a .300 hitter or a 20-game-winning pitcher away from a great baseball team and that isn't going to suddenly make them horrible. You take away a team's best or second best basketball player, and that team will fall in the playoff seedings in a heartbeat. The only comparison I can think of to another team sport is probably the QB in football, but that's also why that position gets so much more attention than the other positions and why there are so many more of them in the NFL Hall of Fame.


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    finals MVP doesn't hurt.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    his numbers are a wee bit underwhelming.

    his peak appears to have lasted about 4 years. during which time he averaged:

    17.8 ppg
    5.3 apg
    2.6 rpg
    1.0 spg
    0.1 bpg

    his shooting efficiency was pretty strong as he regularly had a true shooting percentage around .550 but that total amount of output seems extremely low for a HOF player. his career PER of 15 is also shockingly low.

    was he an incredible defender? or is he basically carried into the HOF because of the 2 titles?

    The eye test beats the stat test every time.

    Don't you stats or titles to say this guy is worthy or not, use them to support.
    Striving for a kinder, gentler PhillyFaninLA

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    I always thought he was overrated defensively, maybe biased from seeing how little he impacted it after the title years.
    correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Dumars need to take on more of an offensive load in 91? In fact, you could say that his defensive efficiency sort of suffered as he became a bigger part of the offense. By 93, the team was getting older, so the team defense was declining. Rodman gone by 94, etc, etc.

    Daly was gone after 92 as well.

    Just thinking about it now. Because there was a difference in his defense prior to the post title years.
    Last edited by Hawkeye15; 02-13-2014 at 04:05 PM.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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