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  1. #1
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    Mr Dolan.. someone Cleveland can count on...

    Well.. another historic day in Cleveland sports history.. today it's the GM of the Cavs getting the axe.. being made to stand up and proclaim "..it was my fault.. I screwed up.. and for this, I have failed..." Of course Mr Gilbert made sure in the presser that the buck didn't start and end with Chris Grant.. it was a team effort.. Just like with the Clow... err Browns.. Mr Haslam has stood up in front of the media and proclaim.. Chud isn't the answer.. a new era needs to begin.. This ownership of these two Cleveland franchises have one thing in common.. they get the benefit of the doubt from the local media.. And, like Chad Young has written (and has been supported all along) It's time to give Mr Dolan his due.. in his story posted in the Let's Go Tride blog, he makes some salient points:

    ..There seems to be a base-line assumption around the Cleveland sports scene that Larry Dolan and his son Paul are brutally bad owners, only made to look reasonable in comparison to the debacles elsewhere in town. It is not a new phenomenon, the Dolans have been a punching bag for local fans (including some readers of this site) for years, and honestly, I don't get it.

    I mean, I understand the frustration when we have to ship out or best players before they reach free agency or when we pass on the big name free agents. But what I don't understand is all the people who look past the overwhelming evidence that Dolan is an excellent owner.

    To me, the owner of any operation has three jobs:

    1.Provide whatever value you can, while knowing your own limits
    2.Hire the best people you can to run your organization
    3.Stay out of their way.

    That's it. And it works not just in sports, but any business. If you own a restaurant, but can't cook, hire a great chef, and get out of their way. If you own a magazine but can't write, hire a great editor, let him or her hire the best writers, and get out of their way.

    From what I can tell, the Dolans sign off on the budget (and we will get back to the budget in a minute), then give Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti, and the front office those two have assembled free reign to run the baseball side of the organization as they see fit. Shapiro and Antonetti are among the best in baseball at their jobs, by all accounts highly regarded within the industry. There are reasons we heard for years that Antonetti was a candidate for other jobs, before he succeeded Shapiro.

    "But the Dolans are so cheap! You can't just brush off the budget!"

    This has been the narrative long enough that the Nick Swisher and Michael Bourn signings feel like aberrations, but there is a lot of evidence the fans are inventing an issue here. If Shapiro thought Dolan was not providing him with the support to build a winner, don't you think he would have taken another job? Would Chris Antonetti have patiently waited his turn when, by all accounts, other organizations were ready to offer him a job?

    Along the same lines, do you really think Terry Francona would have left the comfy confines of retirement just for a team stymied by stingy ownership? You have to believe Shapiro, Antonetti, and Francona all believe Dolan is doing the right things.

    In baseball's economic environment, Dolan has done almost everything right. How many of you saw this yesterday?That's Baseball America telling us the Indians were 4th in international spending in 2013. In the international market, good scouting, recruiting, and quick movements can turn a hefty profit on a relatively small investment.

    In the meantime, the Dolans get blasted for not buying up free agents, but they cannot possibly be expected to outspend the Dodgers or Yankees or Red Sox. Besides, any baseball economist can tell you that there is no worse return on an investment than a free agent. When you sign a free agent, you are usually just hoping the first years are good enough to make up for the last years, which are probably going to be a huge waste of money. The Dolans have hired smart people, enabled them to find talent, provided the cash to sign young players to long-term deals, and stayed out of the public spotlight while the front office does its job.

    Fans think they want the deep pockets of the Steinbrenners running the team, but that seemingly unlimited cash flow comes not from a family but from a city and a media market. If you want the Indians to spend like that, just wait for Cleveland to surpass New York's population, or for the team to move to a bigger market, or for baseball to make fundamental changes in its economic system.

    Since Dolan took over the team in 2000, the Indians have developed and traded for some terrific young talent (Victor Martinez, Carlos Santana, Grady Sizemore, Jason Kipnis, Asdrubal Cabrera, CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and more). The team has finished first or second 6 times and have never finished in last. The organization has had the kind of stability the Browns and Cavs can only dream of.

    And honestly, I am not sure what more you can ask of an owner.
    Good read.. hope you enjoyed it.. the link is provided to give you a chance to read some of the more than 200 comments following the story.. Some are worthy of being read and applauded.. others.. not so much...

    Thoughts?...

    http://www.letsgotribe.com/2014/2/5/...ians-ownership

  2. #2
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    The Tribe don't get enough credit.
    #FireMikeBrown

  3. #3
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    Dolan is far from perfect that's for sure. But winning heals all wounds, until of course u start losing again. And Dolan knows all about losing. Let's start resigning our good players Dolan. Spend the dang money.

    Indians had a good year, but we have no proof the Dolans and the front office can keep it going. I have faith, well as much as any Cleveland fan can.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy View Post
    Dolan is far from perfect that's for sure. But winning heals all wounds, until of course u start losing again. And Dolan knows all about losing. Let's start resigning our good players Dolan. Spend the dang money.

    Indians had a good year, but we have no proof the Dolans and the front office can keep it going. I have faith, well as much as any Cleveland fan can.
    Every year, Mr Dolan DOES spend the dang money.. without fail.. The cheap label has very little to do with reality. Mr Dolan runs the business as a business should be run.. not like the government.. Spending only comes from the revenues generated...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy View Post
    Dolan is far from perfect that's for sure. But winning heals all wounds, until of course u start losing again. And Dolan knows all about losing. Let's start resigning our good players Dolan. Spend the dang money.

    Indians had a good year, but we have no proof the Dolans and the front office can keep it going. I have faith, well as much as any Cleveland fan can.
    I was going to warn you...but, I thought you have been around long enough to know that Geronimo would ultimately come in to support his man crush, Mr. Dolan...lol

    Dolan's spending has increased, no doubt. However, some of that spending is questionable as, if we don't re-sign Ubaldo, he continues to let talent that is already on this team sign elsewhere to avoid paying them. I gave Dolan all of the credit in the world when he went after Swisher and Bourn last year...but, to improve the team that reached the play in game last year, there has been VERY little done.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by browniebuck View Post
    I was going to warn you...but, I thought you have been around long enough to know that Geronimo would ultimately come in to support his man crush, Mr. Dolan...lol

    Dolan's spending has increased, no doubt. However, some of that spending is questionable as, if we don't re-sign Ubaldo, he continues to let talent that is already on this team sign elsewhere to avoid paying them. I gave Dolan all of the credit in the world when he went after Swisher and Bourn last year...but, to improve the team that reached the play in game last year, there has been VERY little done.
    Just a commitment for more than $ 90 MM for a team that has talent and leadership.. There's no doubt the Indians would be able to add "X" player or "Y" pitcher if more money is spent. More money comes from more fans coming to the ballpark, watching on TV and buying merchandise at various retail outlets. This shows having faith in the leadership of the club.. and that's all that Mr Dolan has provided.. and gotten out of the way.. There will never be enough done to satisfy fair weather fans..as they have unlimited desires There will always be enough done to satisfy dedicated fans..as they have realistic desires..

    Man crush is a bit of an odd statement, but there is a certain degree of admiration there, I'll give you that.... When watching the progress of the ownership of the Indians.. it's pretty clear.. Mr Dolan spends.. every penny his team generates.. and that's as much as is possible..

  7. #7
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    At least this Dolan is more successful than his brother in New York who has run the Knicks into the ground for several years. It's good to see a big market team like the Knicks suck for so long. These markets get too much help financially and with its geographic attraction. I could never root team like that...
    #FireMikeBrown

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeronimoSon:27941514
    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy View Post
    Dolan is far from perfect that's for sure. But winning heals all wounds, until of course u start losing again. And Dolan knows all about losing. Let's start resigning our good players Dolan. Spend the dang money.

    Indians had a good year, but we have no proof the Dolans and the front office can keep it going. I have faith, well as much as any Cleveland fan can.
    Every year, Mr Dolan DOES spend the dang money.. without fail.. The cheap label has very little to do with reality. Mr Dolan runs the business as a business should be run.. not like the government.. Spending only comes from the revenues generated...
    Revenue only comes when u win sir. ''You gotta spend money to make money'' its a true statement. If you're not willing to resign ur players and talented free agents on a consistent basis u won't win cnsistantly.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeronimoSon:27941850
    Quote Originally Posted by browniebuck View Post
    I was going to warn you...but, I thought you have been around long enough to know that Geronimo would ultimately come in to support his man crush, Mr. Dolan...lol

    Dolan's spending has increased, no doubt. However, some of that spending is questionable as, if we don't re-sign Ubaldo, he continues to let talent that is already on this team sign elsewhere to avoid paying them. I gave Dolan all of the credit in the world when he went after Swisher and Bourn last year...but, to improve the team that reached the play in game last year, there has been VERY little done.
    Just a commitment for more than $ 90 MM for a team that has talent and leadership.. There's no doubt the Indians would be able to add "X" player or "Y" pitcher if more money is spent. More money comes from more fans coming to the ballpark, watching on TV and buying merchandise at various retail outlets. This shows having faith in the leadership of the club.. and that's all that Mr Dolan has provided.. and gotten out of the way.. There will never be enough done to satisfy fair weather fans..as they have unlimited desires There will always be enough done to satisfy dedicated fans..as they have realistic desires..

    Man crush is a bit of an odd statement, but there is a certain degree of admiration there, I'll give you that.... When watching the progress of the ownership of the Indians.. it's pretty clear.. Mr Dolan spends.. every penny his team generates.. and that's as much as is possible..
    Well that's nice ur satisfyed with no world series win since 1948. BuT as a true fan who's been with cleveland since the day I was born I'm not. I want more then a playoff apperence every 5+ years.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy View Post
    Well that's nice ur satisfyed with no world series win since 1948. BuT as a true fan who's been with cleveland since the day I was born I'm not. I want more then a playoff apperence every 5+ years.
    The Strawman argument about being satisfied.. is untrue. Comments like that have a very nice place on Cleveland.com..

    If the measure of success or failure of a club is by the number of championships in an allotted time, then just about every team is a raging failure. No single team wins every year.. or even every other year.. or even every third year.. or every fourth year..etc..

    The closest team to this is a team that has found that using their financial muscle, they can get an entry into the post season every year or just about every year. Pssst.. here's a couple of hints:

    1. Money buys entre into MLB's playoffs (to a plus 70 % rate)
    2. One team historically has a payroll that is typically 2 to 3 times the league average.

    It's not just talent.. it's opportunity.. When you're always playing in October... odds say, you're going to win a few times..

  11. #11
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    Haha, I think its funny that individuals point to them not re-signing Ubaldo as a cause of not paying existing talent on the roster when the same individuals would have taken a bag of peanuts for Ubs in June of last year. Doesn't seem like the rest of the league is beating down his door at this time. Right now it is not smart to be giving a guy who has had two good halves of baseball the past 4 years 48-52 million and 4 year contract that he is seeking.

    Since Tito has taken over what major star has this team built and not re-signed or are we still going off of Dolan not willing to spend 9 figure deals on CC, Cliff Lee. They have perameters that they have to confine to themselves and unfortunately they do only have a 2-3 year window every 6 years and that is just the fact of it when you have to compete with teams like both LA's, Boston, STL, Detroit, Texas, Toronto now, NYY, etc.

    Their biggest goal should be to draft correctly and develop talent like they are doing now and then trying to get in early with the correct talent like CSan's extension which they are trying to do now with Kip and if not able to fit them within their perameters then making sure they get ample talent for them in return via trade or making the correct draft selection for them from the compensation pick they recieve after a QO like Ubaldo this year. Hopefully if they do these things right year in and year out they will have a longer window like a small market team like Oakland or Tampa but those two organizations know how to scout and develop youth which hopefully the Tribe are starting to go down the right path with the past coupld drafts they have had.
    Last edited by ottograham14; 02-10-2014 at 01:08 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ottograham14 View Post
    Haha, I think its funny that individuals point to them not re-signing Ubaldo as a cause of not paying existing talent on the roster when the same individuals would have taken a bag of peanuts for Ubs in June of last year. Doesn't seem like the rest of the league is beating down his door at this time. Right now it is not smart to be giving a guy who has had two good halves of baseball the past 4 years 48-52 million and 4 year contract that he is seeking.

    Since Tito has taken over what major star has this team built and not re-signed or are we still going off of Dolan not willing to spend 9 figure deals on CC, Cliff Lee. They have perameters that they have to confine to themselves and unfortunately they do only have a 2-3 year window every 6 years and that is just the fact of it when you have to compete with teams like both LA's, Boston, STL, Detroit, Texas, Toronto now, NYY, etc.

    Their biggest goal should be to draft correctly and develop talent like they are doing now and then trying to get in early with the correct talent like CSan's extension which they are trying to do now with Kip and if not able to fit them within their perameters then making sure they get ample talent for them in return via trade or making the correct draft selection for them from the compensation pick they recieve after a QO like Ubaldo this year. Hopefully if they do these things right year in and year out they will have a longer window like a small market team like Oakland or Tampa but those two organizations know how to scout and develop youth which hopefully the Tribe are starting to go down the right path with the past coupld drafts they have had.
    A couple of points in response..

    First (and most important).. the comment is well written and agreeable. Very well done sir...

    Ubaldo was good for almost the entire season.. The popular 2010 first half. and 2014 last half being good, the rest being crap, is close.. it was more of a 1 and 1/2 seasons good and 2 1/2 seasons bag of peanuts value.. The lack of anything consistent until Mickey and Ubaldo got together has to be a blessing and a curse for Ubs.. I still hold out hope that he returns.. even if it does cost that compensatory pick.. which could be a very good player..

    IF

    a big IF..

    ..the Indians don't revert back to the 2012 draft. (Taking Naquin thereby passing Giolito). There are a LOT of interesting FOR/TORP type arms coming in this draft.. The Indians HAVE to address impact SP's.. with three picks in the top 42 (assumes Ubs signs elsewhere), the Indians can help their cause..

    A LOT...

    Mr Dolan has made it a point to stay clear of the baseball side of the operation. He's a fan.. not a baseball expert. His passion is the Cleveland Indians... and he wants them to succeed between the white lines.. while Mr Dolan has the organization succeed outside the white lines.. It's an admirable trait to let those you trust do their job.... and a BIG part of the reason Tito is here..
    Last edited by GeronimoSon; 02-10-2014 at 03:15 PM.

  13. #13
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    Indians have a long history of not resigning good/great players. I'm not even counting cc because I don't blame that on the Indians. Im not asking to spend like the Yankees. Just resign our talent and address a need or two. Every off season Indians cause more holes then they fill. That's my biggest problem with this franchise.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by prodigy View Post
    Indians have a long history of not resigning good/great players. I'm not even counting cc because I don't blame that on the Indians. Im not asking to spend like the Yankees. Just resign our talent and address a need or two. Every off season Indians cause more holes then they fill. That's my biggest problem with this franchise.
    Prod no offense but explain what you would have done then this off-season and in the realm of possible and not just start throwing around whatever dollar amounts you want? You seem to have a quick fix for every Cleveland franchise but your quick fixes would not work in the real world but only in the 2K14 fantasy worlds. Are you going to give Ubaldo Jimenez the 4 years 48 mill that he is looking for? Are you going to re-sign Chris Perez? Are you going to give Joe Smith 5 mill a year for 3 years when you have a long list of pen arms in the minors that cannot continue to do anymore in AAA and have shown they should at least have the ability to compete for a pen spot?


    BTW, Losses in FA since 2007 in the OFFSEASON not during the season:

    2007 - Keith Foulke, Chris Gomez, Trot Nixon
    2008 - Brendan Donnelly, Sal Fasano, Juan Rincon
    2009 - Jamey Carrol, Tomo Ohka & Adam Miller
    2010 - No FA losses
    2011 - Jim Thome, Chad Durbin, Kosuke Fukudome
    2012 - Jach Hannahan, Travis Hafner, Roberto (Fausto) Hernandez
    2013 - Scott Kazmir, Joe Smith, Matt Albers, Rich Hill, Jason Kubel, Chris Perez, Possibly Ubaldo

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/freeagents

    Most of their talent they have just traded away as they were not going to be able to pay them or wanted to get younger in the last couple years by trading vets to get prospects. Guys like CC, Peralta, Cliff Lee, Paul Bryd, Jake Westbrook, Casey Blake, Choo, Vic Martinez, Austin Kearns, Mark DeRosa, Betancourt, Tony Sipp & Kerry Wood.

    Then there were just the drops that nobody cared about or signed to Minor Deals like the Shelley Duncans, Joe Borowski, Johny Damon, Derek Lowe, Raffy Perez, Adam Everett, Mark Grudzielanek, Trevor Crowe, Aaron Laffey, or Josh Barfield.

    Craig Breslow might have been one of the best players that the Tribe let walk in FA in the past 6 years besides this year.

    So basically like stated they have been awful in the past couple years before 2011 in scouting, drafting and trade returns where that is where the team will have to do better which they have started doing if they want continued success.

    Also they just re-signed Dr. Smoove to a very team friendly contract so its great seeing that happen on the day that some are saying they don't try re-signing their talent at least in realistic fashion.

  15. #15
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    I would've resigned Joe smith for one. He is best setup man in baseball and we replace him with outman? Allen can only be used so much. We also lost albers who pitched well and he did not cost all that much.

    Let's lockup Masterson. I'm sick of being other teams minor league system.

    You have to admit, Indians always cause more holes them they fill. Its so true .

    Never said I have a quick fix, i have a long term fix. Stop letting good players walk because you don't wanna give him a little more money. I know its easier said than done, but enough is enough.
    For not honoring a sig bet I now own YEDB90

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