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  1. #1
    6deep is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Wall St. Journal: The Mystery of Iman Shumpert

    Remember when someone said that the Knicks aren't using Shumpert correctly? Read this:

    The Knicks aren't in the business of doing detective work. If they were, it would be interesting to see what they could dig up on the curious case of Iman Shumpert.

    The 23-year-old swingman, as athletically gifted as any player on the Knicks' roster, looks like a future star once every few months, then goes missing in the box score for long stretches.

    How is it that the third-year player can ignite for 27 and 26 points in back-to-back performances during the team's Texas road swing, only to come home and average 7.5 in the Knicks' next four games?

    "I wish I could tell you what it is," Shumpert said recently. "But all I can really do is keep shooting, keep playing hard and believing that it'll click for me."

    Shumpert's inconsistency at both ends of the floor hurts the team in two ways. First, it forces the Knicks to leave an offensive liability in the game for long stretches. Second, as the team's most viable trade asset, Shumpert's unpredictable play damages his value.

    Luckily for Shumpert, coach Mike Woodson has remained patient. "Until they find their stride in this league, [young players] tend to be on a rollercoaster ride at times," said Woodson. "There might be a stretch where everything goes well for a month, but then it can go the other way quickly."

    But Shumpert's play has only become more erratic. Since those breakout performances in Texas earlier this month, he has averaged just 6.4 points on 32.9% shooting.

    Worse, he has logged five scoreless games this season, one shy of the six he had in his first two seasons combined.

    Whatever the problem is, it doesn't seem to be confidence. In last week's game against Brooklyn, Shumpert took six of the Knicks' first 11 shots and finished the game with five points.

    "If field-goal attempts are a measure of confidence, he's not lacking," said ESPN analyst Doris Burke, after Shumpert misfired on a heavily contested three-pointer with eight seconds left on the shot clock in that game.

    The more likely culprit is the lack of synergy between point guard Raymond Felton and Shumpert, who usually serves as Felton's fifth and final offensive option within the starting five.

    In 697 minutes together this season, Felton has assisted Shumpert just 10 times, according to NBA.com. Only Indiana point guard George Hill and shooting guard Lance Stephenson have connected less.

    It's no surprise, then, to recall that Felton was out of the lineup during that Texas trip, when Shumpert caught fire. Instead, third-string point guard Beno Udrih, who has assisted Shumpert nine times in just 291 minutes, was running the offense.

    It helps that Udrih is left-handed. Each of Shumpert's four career 25-point games has come shortly after the Knicks have changed point guards and given the reins to someone who runs the offense from the left side of the floor. That appears to help Shumpert, who shoots far better from the right (41% this season from three-point range) than from the left (31%).

    Felton said "a mix" of things determine where he'll go with the ball on any given play. After a recent game, he said, "I couldn't put the ball in the hole, but I still had to be aggressive for guys like Melo, Tyson and J.R., to get them easy shots"—coincidentally failing to mention Shumpert.

    The Knicks will only be able to ignore him for so long.


  2. #2
    6deep is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Udrih & Shumpert are a better back court tandem. When Udrih said he was being punished for doing the right things.... it shows that choices and sacrifices are being made by both players and I am sure that Udrih is not the only one who wants out of New York.


    oh, here's the article link: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...newyork_sports


  3. #3
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    What exactly is the "right way" to use Shumpert on offense?

    What happened in Texas? Shump hit a million 3 pointers - its not like he miraculously looked like a different player driving and dishing and finishing in traffic. We have seen that before from Shumpert. He is limited offensively and doesn't deserve to be mentioned as a legit scoring option and thats fine.

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    I saw Shump get more than a few good looks from deep last night and his shot was way off. When all you can do is shoot 3s and nothing else, your gonna have your barrages and your gonna have your ice cold brick fests. If he is playing D and rebounding he can still make a positive impact - we shouldn't need Shump to score in order to make a positive impact.

  5. #5
    6deep is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    What exactly is the "right way" to use Shumpert on offense?

    What happened in Texas? Shump hit a million 3 pointers - its not like he miraculously looked like a different player driving and dishing and finishing in traffic. We have seen that before from Shumpert. He is limited offensively and doesn't deserve to be mentioned as a legit scoring option and thats fine.
    I think you know what the right way is D. This is not the team that really spreads the wealth or allows other players to get the ball in their space and rhythm. That is reserved for one guy and everyone else needs to figure it out. Not that there is anything wrong with that.... its about choices.


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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal:27887999
    If he is playing D and rebounding he can still make a positive impact - we shouldn't need Shump to score in order to make a positive impact.
    looks like you're finally done holding him to unfair expectations. Welcome aboard.

  7. #7
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    Exactly. Which is what a lot of us have been saying for a while now. Shump's development has been hurt by Woodson and Woodson's gameplan and the plague of Melocentricity (selfish/iso/hero ball thing). This team is clearly better when the ball is moving and finding open players in good position.

    If you have a PG that deliberately steers the ball away from where Shump's "designated" spots are, then Shump is not going to get good, predictable opportunities.

    Beno got chastised for playing good basketball: Going to the hot guy, going to the open guy, and trying to make the right basketball play. That is the hugest problem on this team.

    THERE ARE OTHER THINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WINNING TO THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR WINNING!!!!!

    Woodson and Melo have been the biggest culprits. Melo has been trying to break through and get over that hump and that 62 point game and subsequent games show that he might just be doing that. He's taking quicker more decisive shots and passing and reacting quicker. There is a big difference between Melo taking 8 seconds to get a shot off and taking 3 seconds to get a shot off.

    Woodson, for whatever reason, does not give Shump the room and latitude to grow and expand his game. He does not invest the time and attention bringing Shump closer to his potential. Woodson wants Shump to be the 3pt shooting defender and that's it. Sucks for Shump and us Shump fans. If Shump was given free reign and time to develop like a Durant or Westbrook or whoever. Just given the time and space to make mistakes, he would be a star player, but every day that goes by I fear it's never going to happen.

    And, I also know that part of it is personal, because Hardaway Jr doesn't get the same type of treatment.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksFan4Years View Post
    Exactly. Which is what a lot of us have been saying for a while now. Shump's development has been hurt by Woodson and Woodson's gameplan and the plague of Melocentricity (selfish/iso/hero ball thing). This team is clearly better when the ball is moving and finding open players in good position.

    If you have a PG that deliberately steers the ball away from where Shump's "designated" spots are, then Shump is not going to get good, predictable opportunities.

    Beno got chastised for playing good basketball: Going to the hot guy, going to the open guy, and trying to make the right basketball play. That is the hugest problem on this team.

    THERE ARE OTHER THINGS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WINNING TO THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR WINNING!!!!!

    Woodson and Melo have been the biggest culprits. Melo has been trying to break through and get over that hump and that 62 point game and subsequent games show that he might just be doing that. He's taking quicker more decisive shots and passing and reacting quicker. There is a big difference between Melo taking 8 seconds to get a shot off and taking 3 seconds to get a shot off.

    Woodson, for whatever reason, does not give Shump the room and latitude to grow and expand his game. He does not invest the time and attention bringing Shump closer to his potential. Woodson wants Shump to be the 3pt shooting defender and that's it. Sucks for Shump and us Shump fans. If Shump was given free reign and time to develop like a Durant or Westbrook or whoever. Just given the time and space to make mistakes, he would be a star player, but every day that goes by I fear it's never going to happen.

    And, I also know that part of it is personal, because Hardaway Jr doesn't get the same type of treatment.
    So, coach, what do YOU do to "give Shump the room to grow". Everyone else is playing the same game - you think Hardaway is getting more opp's by coaches design? Shump plays like double the minutes of Hardaway but Hardaway is more aggressive on offense because he is the better offensive player. What type of "plays" do you run to get Shump to thrive and become a 15ppg scoring weapon?

    Also nice to know your in practice with them too and know that nobody takes time to work with Shumpert, the starting SG who consistently plays 30+ mins on this team. If you have played ball, the "guards" usually work together in drills, the bigs do the same, you really think Hardaway is getting special treatment with our coaches while Shump sits and watches or something?

    I'm just glad Shump seems to understand his limitations more than pretty much every single Knick fan.

    Please respond in specifics, enough of this broad crap that doesn't mean anything (to which I bolded).

    Also, I think your completely making up Melo all of a sudden playing different ball these past 3 games. Did you not hear Hubie Brown when we played LA note a million times how Melo doesn't dribble the ball or move it to create space, he holds it and uses fakes and jabs to get space to shoot - Hubie must have mentioned it 5-6 times.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 01-29-2014 at 11:58 AM.

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    You try so hard to bash Woodson in every single post that they are turning into complete crap. Diversify your bonds bro.

    I think I get it though, you make outlandish predictions for our players and team and when they don't live up to it, instead of just saying your original predictions were way off base, like I can happily admit this season, you just blame the coach for us not reaching them. You sound like Waveycrockett crying about PJ Carlesimo last year.

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    the problem is shumpert is not a pure shooter, but yet takes so many 3s.
    and this is part of the reason why the knicks are struggling. you have a starting SG that can't shoot/score.

    i think shumpert fans have to come to grips that he's just not as good as you think he is and probably won't ever be more than a role/bench guy.

  11. #11
    6deep is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Speaking on Hardaway, he is a better match to Melo's game because he spaces the floor with consistent three point shooting on the right side of the court with Melo that Shump could never match on the left, weak side.


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    There isn't a mystery regarding Shump.

    Offensively he is extremely inconsistent. It also hurts his game that he still hasn't developed a solid handle when attacking the basket. So he's pretty limited to just corner 3's and shot clock down to 2 shots when no one can get a good looking shot.

    Defensively he likes to take chances more lately and Woodson wants him to play perfect defense in this switch happy defensive scheme.

    He doesn't have the same leeway JR gets and he doesn't have the consistency to be relied as a source of points. Give it time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    You try so hard to bash Woodson in every single post that they are turning into complete crap. Diversify your bonds bro.

    I think I get it though, you make outlandish predictions for our players and team and when they don't live up to it, instead of just saying your original predictions were way off base, like I can happily admit this season, you just blame the coach for us not reaching them. You sound like Waveycrockett crying about PJ Carlesimo last year.
    good one.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    You try so hard to bash Woodson in every single post that they are turning into complete crap. Diversify your bonds bro.

    I think I get it though, you make outlandish predictions for our players and team and when they don't live up to it, instead of just saying your original predictions were way off base, like I can happily admit this season, you just blame the coach for us not reaching them. You sound like Waveycrockett crying about PJ Carlesimo last year.
    You try so hard to project that "I know I'm right" attitude so much that I get a kick out of it.

    I've been on this forum for more than a minute and have made plenty of predictions/opinions. I think of this forum as a continuing conversation. From when I first joined and argued with Sly about JCraw being best suited to a 6th man role, right up until now. I have never been a poster to make predictions and try to make things fit my predictions. Just like I wrote in the Trade thread the other day that a proposal is just a proposal. A prediction is just a prediction. I actively watch, follow and read about the Knicks. I have been wrong before and I am man enough to admit it when I am. <cough>Mardy Collins<cough>.

    However, I don't need to bring up all the history for things like Woodson's MO because it's been discussed here many times over. Woodson took over after Melo butted heads with D'Antoni over the Melocentricity of the offense, and Woodson played that "ride Melo's jock" card right into a new contract, even though that Melocentric approach got us embarrassed in the playoffs and then killed us again against Indiana.

    Woodson is a stubborn stick to his preconceived ideas coach regardless of whether it's working or if something else appears to work better. This is a man that took out a hot as hell Shump in an elimination game where Shump was providing the momentum for a comeback.

    Woodson does not give Shump a large role and treats him as a specialized role player. That is how he treats him, people bring up the minutes and starting thing but there are plenty of players across the league, every year, even on most championship squads that are dedicated roleplayers and play 25+minutes per game.

    Furthermore, if Beno can find Shump as much as Felton did in more than TWICE the minutes, that is statistically significant and shows a definite bias. Furthermore, Shump is not part of the offensive gameplan. He seldom has any plays run for him at all. And his role offensively is pretty marginal. Consider that in the starting lineups, Shump has often been the #4 or #5 option on offense, and once bench players get mixed in, it doesn't really change that much.

    You obviously feel that this is correct and pretty much Shump's ceiling. I highly disagree. There is a huge difference in the development process when a young player is given a large role and allowed to make mistakes and figure things out. Again I bring up the example of Kevin Durant that went through a lot of trash in his rookie season before steadily improving. He was so bad that the veterans on the team wanted to revolt because they were tired of losing games at the cost of letting Durant develop. Look at Durant now. Had the Thunder (Sonics) not put in the time and given him the large role and responsibility, Durant would not be the player he is today. They did the same thing with Westbrook and Harden.

    I did not bash Woodson last year. Until this preseason, the only thing I criticized Woodson for was his approach in the playoffs. I have been reacting to what I am seeing since the preseason. My prediction for this team at the beginning of the season was for us to be an offensive juggernaut, which we have shown flashes of but haven't played at a high level or haven't played at a high level consistently. Woodson has done a poor job this season and has only made adjustments because of injuries or social/media pressure like finally curbing JR. Players complaining openly and finally adjusting the defensive scheme a little.

    Since Melo sat out three games and made the comments about "seeing some things" and talking to the coaches about some ideas he had, the Knicks are 9-6 and should be 10-5. That includes a losing streak where the players had to complain about the defensive scheme to get Woodson to make an adjustment.

    So where is this evidence for Woodson effecting the change in the team?? Woodson had to get orders from above just to put JR in his place. None of these are things I am making up. They are what happened.

    I don't have anything against Woodson, but if his coaching is hurting the Knicks, he can bounce. I can tell you right now, if I wasn't getting my job done at work, I might get a warning and then see ya.

    Woodson has made so many poor decisions and mismanaged players, rotations, situations that it's not worth going back over and rehashing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by blahblahyoutoo View Post
    the problem is shumpert is not a pure shooter, but yet takes so many 3s.
    and this is part of the reason why the knicks are struggling. you have a starting SG that can't shoot/score.

    i think shumpert fans have to come to grips that he's just not as good as you think he is and probably won't ever be more than a role/bench guy.

    There's a lot of teams that don't start a pure shooter. That's conventional thinking, but definitely not some requirement that is necessary to win. He shot 40% last year for the 3, he's proven he can hit them consistently. We all don't think that Shump is the player you guys claim we do of him. He's primarily used as a defender and is depended on to hit Melo-generated open shots. He's solid, we know that. You just have an inaccurate perception of how we view Shump, and what is role is. Please refrain from posting in here if you're intent is to think primitively.

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