Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 39
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    4,231
    vCash
    1500

    MLB Statistical Terminology; A better understanding

    Thought this would be fun. I'm not a huge sabermetric kind of guy and admittedly I'm not real familiar with all the different stats used to show how good guys are or aren't now a days.

    For those who are interested, post some of these terms and how they equate to a players rating. Things like a players "WAR", and others that indicate a players range defensively etc.. I'm a huge baseball guy but there are a ton of new stats out there. I'm old school so ERA,batting avg,OBP, are the main ones that used to be considered ways to tell a players ability. Why are some of them good and some just that add to the confusion?

    If it's a busted thread I invite any mods who see fit to delete it. It's been years since I started a thread.

    Thanks JR!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,066
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by mantlefan07 View Post
    Thought this would be fun. I'm not a huge sabermetric kind of guy and admittedly I'm not real familiar with all the different stats used to show how good guys are or aren't now a days.

    For those who are interested, post some of these terms and how they equate to a players rating. Things like a players "WAR", and others that indicate a players range defensively etc.. I'm a huge baseball guy but there are a ton of new stats out there. I'm old school so ERA,batting avg,OBP, are the main ones that used to be considered ways to tell a players ability. Why are some of them good and some just that add to the confusion?

    If it's a busted thread I invite any mods who see fit to delete it. It's been years since I started a thread.
    The most important thing to think about when looking at a stat is what question are you trying to answer.

    If you want to know in what percentage of a player's at bats he gets a hit, then batting average is your stat. However, who really wants to know that?

    For looking at a player's overall hitting the two best stats, IMO, are:
    wOBA and wRC+
    wOBA is like batting average except that different types of hits get different values (it also includes walks and times hit by pitch)
    With batting average these two players are equal
    600 at bats, 200 singles = .333 BA
    600 at bats, 100 singles, 50 doubles, 50 home runs = .333 BA
    Obviously, they aren't equal hitters.

    using wOBA
    600 at bats, 200 singles = .300 wOBA
    600 at bats, 100 singles, 50 doubles, 50 home runs = .566 wOBA

    The second player was MUCH better than the first.

    Here's a more thorough link to wOBA
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/offense/woba/



    wRC+ uses wOBA to tell us how a player's hitting relates to the average player over a time.
    There are a lot of arguments over whether a hitter who hits .300/.400/.450 or a player who hits .270/.350/.550 is the better hitter. These arguments can be endless because Batting Average, OBP and SLG simply don't tell us which hitter was better. Batting average tells us which player got more hits per at bat. OBP tells us which player got on base at a higher rate and slugging tells us...well, slugging tells us about how often a player got on base and with how much power.

    wRC+ tells us how ALL of the player's offense compares to the average player. A number above 100 is better than average. A number below 100 is below average and 100 is exactly average.

    Last year Miguel Cabrera had the highest wRC+ at 192. Cabrera's hitting was 92% better than the average hitter.
    Todd Frazier, Nate McLouth and Yunel Escobar all had exactly average wRC+
    Alcides Escobar was the worst hitter in the league with a 49wRC+. He only produced runs at 49% of the league average rate
    A team with all Miguel Cabrera's would score almost twice as many runs as a team of all Todd Fraziers.
    A team with all Alcides Escobars would score about half as many runs as a team of all Yunel Escobars.


    Here's a link to more info on wRC+
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/offense/wrc/



    As for defense, there are a few different attempts to measure it. All of them somewhat confusing in the exact details but perfectly sensible in the overall.

    FanGraphs uses UZR - Ultimate Zone Rating.
    UZR divides the field up into zones and then uses historical data to see how often balls hit into each zone turn into hits, doubles, triples and outs.
    Defensive players then get credit for making plays in each zone or lose credit for not making plays.

    It's a lot more complex than that and here's a link to the more nitty gritty.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/defense/uzr/

    The important things to remember is that defense is more difficult to measure than offense. For that reason it's better to look at a player's UZR over 2 or 3 seasons than just 1.



    As for ERA, here's a cheesy video that shows some of the problems with using ERA.
    http://www.fangraphs.com/not/video-fip-a-new-era/

    There are a lot of other stats that try to measure a pitcher's performance. Again, it depends on what the question you're trying to answer is.
    The most common question is "how good is this guy?".
    By how good is he, we usually want to know how many runs he's expected to give up
    FIP, xFIP and SIERA are all attempts to answer that question.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/fip/
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/xfip/
    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/pitching/siera/

    All three try try to focus on what the pitcher does while eliminating the effects of his defense, the umpire and the stadium as much as possible.




    Now, WAR. There are a lot of fights about WAR.
    WAR is simply an attempt to answer the biggest most common question that people have when discussing baseball. Which player was better.
    WAR attempts to find out how many runs a player helped his team score with his hitting and base running and how many runs he prevented the other team from scoring with his defense/pitching.

    All the things that I described are measured in runs. We try to tell how many runs a player produced with his hitting. How many runs he produced running the bases. How many runs he saved by playing defense or pitching. Then we add them all up and say that this player was worth ?? runs.

    This is called Runs Above Replacement.
    WAR is Wins Above Replacement.

    Some of those runs happened in 10-1 games. Others happened in 3-2 games. We don't try to tell which run happened in which game (though we do have stats for that as well). We just know that this player produced this amount of runs. How do we get wins?

    Some smarter guys than me figured out that spread out over a season, a team that scores 10 more runs than another will win about 1 more game. So, 10 runs = about 1 Win (it's a bit less 9 point something).

    If we think a player helped his team by 20 runs, then we say that player was worth 2 wins. If a player helped his team by 50 runs, then that player was worth 5 wins. If a player was terrible and cost his team 10 runs then he was worth -1 wins.

    http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/




    That's a ton of info to digest, but welcome to the rabbit hole.

    Feel free to ask any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them.
    Last edited by filihok; 01-26-2014 at 01:41 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    22,766
    vCash
    1000
    wOBA is definitely a great stat for evaluating how good a player is as an overall hitter. It's a pretty simple concept that expands on regular OBP. With regular OBP, a single is weighted the same as a home run. Obviously, a home run has a lot more value than a single. wOBA incorporates that and truly shows you a much better picture of how valuable certain hitters are.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    9,026
    vCash
    9155

    MLB Statistical Terminology; A better understanding

    My favorite sabermetric is the eye test. I also have no clue what stuff like wrc+ is I believe it is weighted runs created? But idk wtf that means. If someone could enlighten me that'd be great

    Edit-just read filhoks post
    Last edited by goingfor28; 01-26-2014 at 03:07 PM.

    ACE
    3-4
    5.28 ERA
    46.0 IP
    48 K
    1.48 WHIP

    BE BACK SOON. CURRENTLY EATING SOME TRENTON CHEESEBURGERS

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    4,231
    vCash
    1500
    WOW! For a guy who thought he knew a lot about baseball, these are some really interesting stats and I have to say mind boggling of sorts. LOL!

    Thanks JR!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Creepyville, USA
    Posts
    25,268
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by goingfor28 View Post
    My favorite sabermetric is the eye test. I also have no clue what stuff like wrc+ is I believe it is weighted runs created? But idk wtf that means. If someone could enlighten me that'd be great

    Edit-just read filhoks post
    While fill hooks post was very informative, I also agree that sport is for human fan eye consumption, not or algorithms.

    I always have and always will judge a player on what I see. And since I truly only care about the Yankees, and see almost every game, I really have no interest in learning about the value of the aaa 2b in the San Diego system.

    But I respect the fact that some people enjoy that stuff.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,983
    vCash
    1500
    Filihok's post was great and explains a lot of these things in a very easy to understand way. Kudos.

    Just to expand on one point he made... The biggest thing you need to think about when using stats is "what question am I trying to answer?" So, as Filihok alluded to, if you're trying to figure out which player is the better overall hitter batting average doesn't tell enough of the story to be worthwhile. If that is the question you're trying to answer you need a stat like wOBA or wRC+ which accounts for ALL of a player's offensive contributions and weights them in the appropriate manner.

    Another important thing about stats is to understand which ones have predictive value and which ones don't. A big debate that usually surrounds WAR is that some people try to use it as a predictive measure when that's not its purpose. WAR tells us the value of what a player actually did but not necessarily what he will do going forward. Obviously, one can draw reasonable conclusions based on the data going forward - for example a player with 5 consecutive seasons of 4+ WAR per season will likely continue to produce at that level - however the stat isn't trying to predict the future.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,066
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by mantlefan07 View Post
    WOW! For a guy who thought he knew a lot about baseball, these are some really interesting stats and I have to say mind boggling of sorts. LOL!
    That's only the tip of the iceberg.

    FanGraphs is, in my opinion, the best spot for these types of stats.
    Their glossary is very informative.

    Also this
    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/1...rs-of-giants-a



    Quote Originally Posted by LeoYankee View Post
    While fill hooks post was very informative,
    Thank you LowYanker,


    I also agree that sport is for human fan eye consumption, not or algorithms.

    I always have and always will judge a player on what I see. And since I truly only care about the Yankees, and see almost every game,
    The problem, in my opinion, with this approach is what, then, are you comparing the Yankee players too?
    How can you know if a player is good, bad, or average compared to other players in the league if you don't know about the other players in the league?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    North Sentinel Island
    Posts
    5,086
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    Thank you LowYanker,



    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    The problem, in my opinion, with this approach is what, then, are you comparing the Yankee players too?
    How can you know if a player is good, bad, or average compared to other players in the league if you don't know about the other players in the league?
    Well...in all fairness to Leo (and correct me if I'm wrong Leo), but not everyone watches baseball for the simple fact of comparing players and seeing who is better than who. I think the only thing he really cares about is the only thing that really matters at the end of the day and that's how many wins your team can throw up on that board. (And a championship of course).
    FC Bayern Munchen

    New York Yankees

    45-44



    G: 78 | AVG: .269 | HR: 2| RBI: 24 | OBP: .321 | SLG: .323 | wOBA: .291 | wRC: 79

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    22,766
    vCash
    1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees90. View Post
    Well...in all fairness to Leo (and correct me if I'm wrong Leo), but not everyone watches baseball for the simple fact of comparing players and seeing who is better than who. I think the only thing he really cares about is the only thing that really matters at the end of the day and that's how many wins your team can throw up on that board. (And a championship of course).
    Right I think we all watch for that reason, I'd be concerned otherwise

    But in order to put together a winning team players have to be evaluated and compared to alternatives.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Creepyville, USA
    Posts
    25,268
    vCash
    1500
    To reply to fillihok (autocorrect), 90 and clip....

    90 has it right. All I care about is two things. Entertainment value and Wins. Nothing else.

    Regarding other players, sure I look at stats from time to time to see how certain guys or teams are doing, but personally I have no interest in researching anyone from other teams UNLESS we are rumored to be getting them or one of our rivals is.

    One thing I do enjoy about stats, mostly traditional, is looking at career stats of past players. I enjoy that. For example, I often mention studying Bonds career stats because you can look at them for an hour and still not believe them.

    Clip and Hook seem to enjoy pretending they are the GM. And that's not a knock. That's what you guys enjoy.....evaluating guys in the league.

    I just prefer my own enjoyment.

    That's why I've wanted guys like Josh or even Brandon Philips......not cause they are the best stat guys but because I'd have a blast watching them. Same w Arod.....he was a rare combo of great and insanely entertaining. It's why I like Nova. He wins plus he thinks he's fkn great plus he's got balls. Fkn entertaining. Puppy? He's hilarious. Helmet falling off. Throws into the second deck. White guys facial features. Hits a bomb off Verlander. It's funny.

    Guys like Drew, Infante, Ervin Santana, Hughes, etc......they bore the hell out of me even though they may have value.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    4,231
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Clipper View Post
    Right I think we all watch for that reason, I'd be concerned otherwise

    But in order to put together a winning team players have to be evaluated and compared to alternatives.
    And in this "Hot Stove" season, that's what we do isn't it, to look at stats and really get an idea of what the Yankees might be getting or how I as a fan can measure my expectations. Of course realizing that each season is different and has it's exception to the "rule".

    Of all major sports baseball is stat driven and is the most debated sport because of stats. Like them or not care about them, stats are important and can explain a lot in baseball more than anywhere else.

    Thanks JR!

  13. 01-26-2014, 11:59 PM
    Reason
    Disruptive

  14. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    6,066
    vCash
    1500
    Mantlefan, perhaps you've heard of Bill James. He's known as "The Godfather of Sabermetrics"

    He's also the Senior Advisor of Baseball Operations for the World Champion Boston Red Sox.
    *source

    Since James has been with the Red Sox they have won 3 World Series.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstj...-world-series/

    http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/8878860...eer-bill-james



    I won't be as patronizing as some other posters who will tell you what to do and what to believe.
    I'll present evidence and allow you to come to your own decision. I'll answer questions that you ask.
    Come to your own conclusions.

    If you believe that billion dollar businesses (baseball franchises) rely solely on the eye test and that statistical analysis is a "massive political, money making hoax", then that's the conclusion that you come to.

  15. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Orange County, NY
    Posts
    4,231
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    Mantlefan, perhaps you've heard of Bill James. He's known as "The Godfather of Sabermetrics"

    He's also the Senior Advisor of Baseball Operations for the World Champion Boston Red Sox.
    *source

    Since James has been with the Red Sox they have won 3 World Series.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/allenstj...-world-series/

    http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/8878860...eer-bill-james



    I won't be as patronizing as some other posters who will tell you what to do and what to believe.
    I'll present evidence and allow you to come to your own decision. I'll answer questions that you ask.
    Come to your own conclusions.

    If you believe that billion dollar businesses (baseball franchises) rely solely on the eye test and that statistical analysis is a "massive political, money making hoax", then that's the conclusion that you come to.
    I think it's very compelling use of statistics to help gauge a better understanding of what a player can do and has done. It's not really a matter of "belief" it's not religion. It's based on factual statistical happenings/performances.

    I appreciate the contribution here filihok! Very interesting stuff!

    Thanks JR!

  16. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Somewhere within the transmutation of Yin and Yang
    Posts
    6,790
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by filihok View Post
    The most important thing to think about when looking at a stat is what question are you trying to answer.

    If you want to know in what percentage of a player's at bats he gets a hit, then batting average is your stat. However, who really wants to know that?


    Feel free to ask any questions you have and I'll do my best to answer them.
    Thanks
    This was great. I still think I will judge by what I see but it is nice to have a rudimentary understanding of these stats.


    What a great day it was.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •