Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500

    If you want personal glory you are in the wrong sport

    Anyone else feel like we are moving farther and farther away from the notion that football is the ultimate team sport?

    All these talking heads love to say QB record this QB rating that. Or rushing yards this or that. Super rings this and that.

    No one player has that much control over the outcome of an NFL game. It's really that simple. Everybody, but QB has in fact very marginal control over who wins the actual damn game.

    And even QB's don't face each other. They rely on their lines, receivers, defenses and coaches to put them in the right place for success.

    I'm so sick of the media trying to shove down individualism in the NFL. I get it, it's America's most popular sport, but it's wrong.

    Take up boxing if you want personal achievement. Man against man. Take up basketball where it's 5 on 5 and you play both ways. Take up baseball where your numbers are pretty close to what you actually are as a player.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    5,874
    vCash
    1500
    Ludicrous!

    Of course it is a team sport but would you rather have Brady or Sanchez as your teams QB? Would you rather have Calvin Johnson or some rookie with 7 catches as your WR?

    It is a team sport made up of talented or talentless players and to try to diminish the talented player by calling it a team sport is ridiculous in the extreme.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Preparing for WAR! 5/3/14 Maidana vs Mayweather
    Posts
    27,672
    vCash
    9663
    Quote Originally Posted by holditdown View Post
    Anyone else feel like we are moving farther and farther away from the notion that football is the ultimate team sport?

    All these talking heads love to say QB record this QB rating that. Or rushing yards this or that. Super rings this and that.

    No one player has that much control over the outcome of an NFL game. It's really that simple. Everybody, but QB has in fact very marginal control over who wins the actual damn game.

    And even QB's don't face each other. They rely on their lines, receivers, defenses and coaches to put them in the right place for success.

    I'm so sick of the media trying to shove down individualism in the NFL. I get it, it's America's most popular sport, but it's wrong.

    Take up boxing if you want personal achievement. Man against man. Take up basketball where it's 5 on 5 and you play both ways. Take up baseball where your numbers are pretty close to what you actually are as a player.
    Who is we? If by "we" you mean us objective, level headed, logical, intelligent posters, then no. If by "we" you mean the children, trolls, blind homers, and stat ignoring fools, then I don't know, I can't speak for that demographic.
    lol, please' top 10 p4p- Mayweather/Ward/Marquez/Pacquiao/Maidana/Rigondeaux/Froch/Cotto/B-Hop/Canelo
    Boxing fan? Come discuss Boxing!

    "We are chasing greatness" Mark Jackson 3/7/14

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by lolPhillies View Post
    Who is we? If by "we" you mean us objective, level headed, logical, intelligent posters, then no. If by "we" you mean the children, trolls, blind homers, and stat ignoring fools, then I don't know, I can't speak for that demographic.
    Good point. It's mostly social media, ESPN, my friends, etc.

    For some reason people seem to think an 11-11 sport with a 52 man roster is somehow not the ultimate team sport.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Ludicrous!

    Of course it is a team sport but would you rather have Brady or Sanchez as your teams QB? Would you rather have Calvin Johnson or some rookie with 7 catches as your WR?

    It is a team sport made up of talented or talentless players and to try to diminish the talented player by calling it a team sport is ridiculous in the extreme.
    Disagree. There is no way to compare Brady to other QB's. It would be extremely difficult to do. Like Brady said himself when people compare him to Manning. He says he has no idea really who is better. Brady is running his system. Brady has his coaches, his players, his blockers. Manning has his.

    It's the ultimate team sport.

    You want personal glory then go man vs man.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    5,874
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by holditdown View Post
    Disagree. There is no way to compare Brady to other QB's. It would be extremely difficult to do. Like Brady said himself when people compare him to Manning. He says he has no idea really who is better. Brady is running his system. Brady has his coaches, his players, his blockers. Manning has his.

    It's the ultimate team sport.

    You want personal glory then go man vs man.
    Everything about your thesis is incorrect.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Everything about your thesis is incorrect.
    I'm paraphrasing Brady's thesis on football individualism. Basically he really doesn't care nor believe in personal glory in an ultimate team sport.

    He plays like it too. Team guy.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4,795
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by holditdown View Post
    Disagree. There is no way to compare Brady to other QB's. It would be extremely difficult to do. Like Brady said himself when people compare him to Manning. He says he has no idea really who is better. Brady is running his system. Brady has his coaches, his players, his blockers. Manning has his.

    It's the ultimate team sport.

    You want personal glory then go man vs man.
    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Everything about your thesis is incorrect.
    He has got it exactly right. Success = players + system + luck. In that order. Brady might have got drafted by a lesser team that year (no one was drafting QBs) and have never been put in a position to succeed. Don't get me wrong one of the best ever but he did not come into the league that way.
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
    —Arthur Schopenhauer (German philosopher, 1788-1860)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Preparing for WAR! 5/3/14 Maidana vs Mayweather
    Posts
    27,672
    vCash
    9663
    Quote Originally Posted by holditdown View Post
    Good point. It's mostly social media, ESPN, my friends, etc.

    For some reason people seem to think an 11-11 sport with a 52 man roster is somehow not the ultimate team sport.
    Well, "ultimate" is opinion and will vary, I think baseball (though matchups are individual) and soccer are both exceptional team sports, but I get your point.

    I think fans and media largely take advantage of the fact that there indeed is a heirarchy in the team, with the QB at top. The problem is it gets blown out of context and proportion, and it's ridiculous. It really is. A QB has an enourmous impact on the game offensively, and obviously that affects the whole game by varying degrees, but he will never have complete control of the game and all the variables that affect the outcome of a game. Period. The fact that some fans/media act like it's all one player on a team is both irresponsible, and disrespetful towards every member on that roster, in my humble but spectacularly accurate opinion.
    lol, please' top 10 p4p- Mayweather/Ward/Marquez/Pacquiao/Maidana/Rigondeaux/Froch/Cotto/B-Hop/Canelo
    Boxing fan? Come discuss Boxing!

    "We are chasing greatness" Mark Jackson 3/7/14

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Left
    Posts
    12,296
    vCash
    1500
    When you play for my team, if personal glory is your 1st priority you won't be here very long.

    Team comes first. Always.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by lolPhillies View Post
    Well, "ultimate" is opinion and will vary, I think baseball (though matchups are individual) and soccer are both exceptional team sports, but I get your point.

    I think fans and media largely take advantage of the fact that there indeed is a heirarchy in the team, with the QB at top. The problem is it gets blown out of context and proportion, and it's ridiculous. It really is. A QB has an enourmous impact on the game offensively, and obviously that affects the whole game by varying degrees, but he will never have complete control of the game and all the variables that affect the outcome of a game. Period. The fact that some fans/media act like it's all one player on a team is both irresponsible, and disrespetful towards every member on that roster, in my humble but spectacularly accurate opinion.
    I agree with what you are saying, but at least in baseball it's fundamentally 1 on 1. Batter vs Pitcher.

    There is just no element of man vs man in football. So that's why I think it's considered the ultimate team sport.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    5,874
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by 34_for_life View Post
    ...Don't get me wrong one of the best ever but he did not come into the league that way.
    I don't put much stock into pre-draft assessments.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    I don't put much stock into pre-draft assessments.
    Neither do I, but he brings up a fantastic point. Success is Ability+System+Luck in that order.

    Consider three of some of the NFL's GOAT's. Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Ray Lewis. Most would say that these 3 players were blessed with an inordinate amount of these 3 things. But you cannot isolate any of these things.

    What would Ray Lewis have looked like without that great front 4 in his prime? We don't know because well he did have a great front 4 in his prime. You can't just go back in time and plug in a prime Ray Lewis on a bad
    defense.

    What would Brady have looked like without Belichick or an a completely different team? We don't know because Belichick was there.

    What would Montana have looked like in a different offensive system and not the WCO? We don't know because he didn't play in a different system while in his prime.

    What would the system's have looked like without these players? Well that is difficult considering the small sample sizes without these players playing and the fact that the system is designed around these guys. You can't freeze time and start playing with variables.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    5,874
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by holditdown View Post
    Neither do I, but he brings up a fantastic point. Success is Ability+System+Luck in that order.

    Consider three of some of the NFL's GOAT's. Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Ray Lewis. Most would say that these 3 players were blessed with an inordinate amount of these 3 things. But you cannot isolate any of these things.

    What would Ray Lewis have looked like without that great front 4 in his prime? We don't know because well he did have a great front 4 in his prime. You can't just go back in time and plug in a prime Ray Lewis on a bad
    defense.

    What would Brady have looked like without Belichick or an a completely different team? We don't know because Belichick was there.

    What would Montana have looked like in a different offensive system and not the WCO? We don't know because he didn't play in a different system while in his prime.

    What would the system's have looked like without these players? Well that is difficult considering the small sample sizes without these players playing and the fact that the system is designed around these guys. You can't freeze time and start playing with variables.
    All of this is well and good. But, in the end we have some realities, some players are just not good enough to play in the NFL. The reality is, when they are not, they are cut. Could they be worthy players in some imaginary system with some imaginary team full of imaginary players? Well, sure. But, that team isn't around to prove it so we have a reality. He was cut because he wasn't good enough and no team believed he was. Let's take that reality to the next level. Players on teams play. Good ones are rewarded with more playing time. Bad ones are rewarded with less playing time. That is a reality. An additional benefit of the reward of more playing time within the framework of team play is the accumulation of personal stats. Fair or unfair, truth or not, that is another reality. Even in a team game good players, great players, average players, lousy players or bums are rewarded with personal stats. That becomes who they are as a player. Could another player have done better? Well, sure. But, we have a reality here, this particular player did what his stats say he did. Those are facts that are not disputable.
    Bill Parcells: "You are what your record says you are."

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    380
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    All of this is well and good. But, in the end we have some realities, some players are just not good enough to play in the NFL. The reality is, when they are not, they are cut. Could they be worthy players in some imaginary system with some imaginary team full of imaginary players? Well, sure. But, that team isn't around to prove it so we have a reality. He was cut because he wasn't good enough and no team believed he was. Let's take that reality to the next level. Players on teams play. Good ones are rewarded with more playing time. Bad ones are rewarded with less playing time. That is a reality. An additional benefit of the reward of more playing time within the framework of team play is the accumulation of personal stats. Fair or unfair, truth or not, that is another reality. Even in a team game good players, great players, average players, lousy players or bums are rewarded with personal stats. That becomes who they are as a player. Could another player have done better? Well, sure. But, we have a reality here, this particular player did what his stats say he did. Those are facts that are not disputable.
    All personal stats are team stats. Peyton Manning didn't break the TD's record for example. I look at like the ball came out his arm. 10 other guys were doing things while on offense. All of them crucial to the team.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •