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  1. #1
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    Is Amare being healthy killing our season?

    I posted this in the Bargs thread but I actually think it deserves it's own thread. Just looking at some numbers it's crazy how bad we are when Amare plays.

    Even last year we went on crazy runs when he was out.

    http://www.82games.com/1314/1314NYK2.HTM

    Our two top lineups in terms of point differential, Bargs is in both of them. And they are also the lineups that have played the most minutes this year so it's not a small sample size.

    Tommy Dee makes some great points... Amare is the one who just kills every single lineup he's in.

    It makes me wonder... is it a coincidence now that Amare is healthy we are struggling? We all know Woodson is basically forced into playing him.

    I keep thinking of that statistic from last year, Melo alone 52-20... Melo when Amare plays 38-38.

    And this year...

    With Amare - 6-17

    Without Amare - 4-2

    Again, is this just a coincidence that we are 4-2 when Amare hasn't played? It's getting really hard to overlook. And even though Amare is putting up some decent numbers, his defense, TO's and the fact that he almost never passes the ball once he gets it (12 assists all year!!!), it just results in a net negative for us.

  2. #2
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    I think he forces us to not play guys that make sense just to get him in the game, it forces us into awkward lineups like Bargs and Amare playing simultaneously. I think without Bargs, we could get away with Amare as backup C. But I still don't think that is ideal, and I think Bargs is a little bit better of a fit there.

    The numbers are getting hard to ignore though, especially in our 4th season. Since Melo has been here, Amare has been nothing but a net negative for us, he kills continuity since he's always injured, he kills sensible rotations because he makes 23M and doesn't fit anywhere.

    When you have a guy playing near peak basketball (per minute) and you still can't seem to rally around him and hit your stride with him as a focal point, something has gotta give. We have seen Amare dropped 15ppg in 22mpg on like 70% shooting for stretches, but the team never benefitted from it, and the team never peaked until he went down. When your playing that well and the team struggles you are simply a bad fit for that team and he has been a bad fit ever since Melo got here.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 01-03-2014 at 05:01 PM.

  3. #3
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    I definitely went into this season on the assumption Amare was missing at least 50 games.

  4. #4
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    man for some reason I feel amare is playin better than barge...he still has that confidence and swag on the offensive end and i'd be willing to lay a bet he is shooting better from the floor than bargs...they both suck defensively i'd rather go to war with amare than barge cuz barge looks like he doesn't care and has no passion
    "Teamwork makes the Dream work"

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    Amare played well on Duncan too, which surprised me...bargnani looks like he just doesn't gel...
    "Teamwork makes the Dream work"

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpgmaster86 View Post
    man for some reason I feel amare is playin better than barge...he still has that confidence and swag on the offensive end and i'd be willing to lay a bet he is shooting better from the floor than bargs...they both suck defensively i'd rather go to war with amare than barge cuz barge looks like he doesn't care and has no passion
    I think the only way either one of them fits is as backup C, but I like Bargs better there. He is able to actually body up bigger Cs where Amare gets ragdolled, he is more versatile on offense and doesn't require being forcefed - he can actually play off Melo and he moves the ball when he gets it whereas Amare is a black hole with tunnelvision once he gets it, Bargs also has less backbreaking mistakes on offense like the dribbling off your foot out of bounds and spinning into a travel we see at least 1-2x a game with STAT. I like Bargs better as backup C, but I do agree he seems to suck energy out of the team with his nonchalantness at times, Amare at least tries to galvanize the team with his heart and energy.

  7. #7
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    Both aren't really that good, but Amare>Bargs

    Amare can still finish well, and his defense has been better than Bargs from my view, and he isn't allergic to grabbing some rebounds. He has improved from the beginning of the season.

    If Bargnani could shoot 3s better, he'd be a lot more useful. Since he can't, he's pretty useless.

  8. #8
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    Ya its the twin ****tards. You can survive one on the court but definitely not two at the same time.

  9. #9
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    Yeah, it's becoming more obvious with each passing month that Amare just doesn't fit here. What's really glaring for me is that 82games.com was last updated on 12/15, shortly after Amare had his best stretch of the season by far. In the 5 games from 12-05 to 12-13 Amare averaged 15 PPG, 5 REB and 1.2 BLK with just 0.8 TO in 25.5 MPG and an insane FG% of .721 on 8.6 FGA to go along with a .722 line from the stripe on 3.6 attempts.

    In those 5 games we went 2-3, the first three games being the Brooklyn blowout win followed by the Boston and Cleveland massacre losses. Amare was a +12 in 19 minutes vs BK, a -12 in 21 minutes vs BOS, a -1 in 27 minutes vs Cleveland, a +2 in 30 minutes vs CHI and a -15 in 30 minutes vs Boston. There was also the Atlanta win on 12-14, in which he had cooled off and was a -8 in 19 minutes right before he took his controversial, "Im not injured" rest thanks to Woodson. That's a total of a -22 in 146 minutes, which at a per 48 pace is -7.2.

    That's a stretch where we went 3-3, with 5 of those games of him scoring 15 PPG in 25 MPG on 72%. That's not enough to help that out? For some reference even that improved -7.2 per 48 would put him as the 2nd worst on the team as of 12/15, behind Beno's atrocious -13.4. That's the other thing that concerns me, shortly after his best stretch the site was updated and his per 48 differential on the court was a staggering -14.8.

    His offensive rating at that point was a 97 and his defensive rating was a 113. This is a pure scoring player, coming off a stretch where he shot 72% for five games and had been shooting 56% overall at that point, and we weren't even scoring 1 point per possession with him on!? An offensive rating of 97 would be the worst in the NBA, behind the Milwaukee Bucks at 98.9.

    Not that Amare is our only problem, we've got plenty, but it surely isn't helping to be playing someone who with on the court we get outscored by a point for every 3 minutes he plays.

  10. #10
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    First of all.. Let me say this.. Tommy Dee is a palm palm shaker for Bargniani.. So take anything he says with a grain of salt..

    It is pretty simple if you ask me.. Amar'e Stoudemire needs starters minutes to be impactful.. His injury history is part of the reason why he isn't getting those minutes.. But if you substitute Stat for Bargniani in the starting lineup and give Amare those shot attempts and minutes.. Amar'e Stoudemire will be way more effective than Bargs has been..

    Last game Bargs was a Net + and Stat was a Net -.. When you look at those numbers blindly it looks like Stat was hurting the team.. But if you watched the game.. As soon as Amar'e entered the game is when Bellenelli started to go off.. But out offense started to hum as well. That his how we were able to keep pace. On top of that.. When Stat was in that is when Shump was out.. Which allowed the SA guards to break down our defense at the point of attack...

    You guys know where I stand on Stoudemire.. He was 4-6 from the field and 3-4 from the line last night.. And he made some tough shots that kept us in it.. Stoudemire should start and play a max of 30 minutes a night.. And when he is in the game the offense should flow through him in the pick and roll... The first man off the bench should be JR for Stoudemire.... Moving Melo to the four.. Then you bring in Bargs for Tyson.. And Kenyon in for Melo...

    It's all about rotations.. Beno played well last night.. But I would go with Toure and Shump in the back court to start.. So Beno can play with Bargs off the bench and Toure can play with Amare and Tyson in the starting line up...
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  11. #11
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    Bargs is by far the better player of the two!
    Anyone who says different is buggin.
    They both suck on D, but atleast bargs can defend his man one on one and did a great job defending Dwight and Roy.
    Bargs is also much more versatile on offensive and plays better with his team.he can pass the ball he can PNR or PNP , he can shoot or drive and he can finish.
    Yes they both turn the ball over but stat turns it over way to often , it's almost guarantied that he turns it over twice a game.
    Plus stat makes other below average pf/c look like all stars.
    How many times does some nobody block his shot?
    If I had to choice, I would definitely take bargs over stat any day.
    Not to mention that stat just flat out ruins our chemistry and the rotations.
    The good news is that he will be coming off the books very soon.
    But not soon enough.

  12. #12
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    Not defending amare at all, but this is just one of the MANY issues the knicks have.
    It would be easy to blame it on just amare if you didn't have other **** going on that you can't blame on him.

    For example;
    Chandler basically disappears on offense.
    Shump score on any kind of reliable consistent basis.
    jr smith is easily on of the worst decision makers / head cases in the league.
    Bargs is soft as ****, doesn't play d, and doesn't rebound.
    Are back up pg is injured, and starting pg just sucks, period.

    These are thing that are present whether or not amare is in the lineup.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnWhyKay View Post
    First of all.. Let me say this.. Tommy Dee is a palm palm shaker for Bargniani.. So take anything he says with a grain of salt..

    It is pretty simple if you ask me.. Amar'e Stoudemire needs starters minutes to be impactful.. His injury history is part of the reason why he isn't getting those minutes.. But if you substitute Stat for Bargniani in the starting lineup and give Amare those shot attempts and minutes.. Amar'e Stoudemire will be way more effective than Bargs has been..

    Last game Bargs was a Net + and Stat was a Net -.. When you look at those numbers blindly it looks like Stat was hurting the team.. But if you watched the game.. As soon as Amar'e entered the game is when Bellenelli started to go off.. But out offense started to hum as well. That his how we were able to keep pace. On top of that.. When Stat was in that is when Shump was out.. Which allowed the SA guards to break down our defense at the point of attack...

    You guys know where I stand on Stoudemire.. He was 4-6 from the field and 3-4 from the line last night.. And he made some tough shots that kept us in it.. Stoudemire should start and play a max of 30 minutes a night.. And when he is in the game the offense should flow through him in the pick and roll... The first man off the bench should be JR for Stoudemire.... Moving Melo to the four.. Then you bring in Bargs for Tyson.. And Kenyon in for Melo...

    It's all about rotations.. Beno played well last night.. But I would go with Toure and Shump in the back court to start.. So Beno can play with Bargs off the bench and Toure can play with Amare and Tyson in the starting line up...
    I definitely agree that Tommy Dee goes overboard in defending Bargs, but I don't think that makes his argument on this invalid. This has been an issue with Amare for a couple of years now, not just this year. Sure there are going to be games that are anomalies, but that also goes both ways and over the course of a season or two things certainly get past the point of being a coincidence.

    I don't think it's all about Amare either, though. Yes, he's far more limited now than he was before injuries, but I think it's more of how bad a fit he is here. The big glaring problem that has been here is how bad our PG play has been, really since forever at this point lol. Felton played good for a month or so in 2010 before reality set in and teams gave him the shot on the PnR, and a month of Jeremy Lin that Amare wasn't even around for. Other than that the PG play has either been god awful or some average play by Billups who is not a facilitating PG by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not in the PnR.

    Amare's best weapon his entire career has been his PnR game, with his face up and his recently added post game as a good compliment. Without his PnR game and his current health it's hard for him to make a positive impact consistently because he's purely a finisher, don't ever expect him to make a good pass. Like I said in my last post, he was scoring 15 PPG in 25 MPG on 72% for 5 games, surely what should be enough to make good for the team and yet he was still a -7.2 per 48.

    With his game deteriorating along with his health he just isn't a guy who should be playing 30 MPG anymore with his horrible deficiencies as a defender, rebounder and as a offensive player in any way other than scoring. On NBA.com's Player Tracking Stats, which are updated nightly, we can see that Amare has grabbed just 51.9% of his rebound chances this season, a mark that places him 137 out of 157 amongst players that average 7 REB chances per game or more. That places him right behind Kyle Korver, of all people. Bargnani actually ranks 41st in REB% under that criteria, but his problem is he's only creating 8.3 REB chances per game as a 7 footer who's been playing plenty of center. Some of that is on offense, where he's not close to the rim for more offensive rebound chances, but 8.3 is really low for 30 MPG.

    To add to his woes he's only shooting 38.7% on catch and shoot opportunities, although it's only 1.2 FGA per game. His passing game is as non existent as it gets. He makes 14.7 passes per game in 18.9 MPG, creating 1.4 assist opportunities per game. He touches the ball 24.8 times per game, but only 15.4 of those coming in the front court. For some reference again we look to Bargnani, who is also not getting confused for a passer any time soon. Bargs makes 29.7 passes per game in 30.2 MPG, creating 2.6 assist opportunities per game. He touches the ball 45.9 times per game, with 28.9 touches per game coming in the front court.

    What we see there isn't about passing ability, it's about the willingness to pass. Amare just isn't a passer, both in skill and mentality. But I would like to wrap up this opus on Amare Stoudemire lol, so I will in a complimentary fashion.

    Again, to me it comes down to how bad a fit he is here more than his personal ability, deteriorating as it is. If he was on a team with a good PG, particularly one who can work the PnR, he would be far more valuable than what he can do for us. When Amare is in a PnR attack even though he'll only be finishing the high % of his scoring will still lead to defensive attention, and by turn will allow the PnR PG to get open mid range looks or to see passing lanes to set up other players. All Amare is doing here is scoring from the block at a nice %, and everything else in the game of basketball he brings a huge negative.
    Last edited by FOXHOUND; 01-03-2014 at 07:39 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXHOUND View Post
    I definitely agree that Tommy Dee goes overboard in defending Bargs, but I don't think that makes his argument on this invalid. This has been an issue with Amare for a couple of years now, not just this year. Sure there are going to be games that are anomalies, but that also goes both ways and over the course of a season or two things certainly get past the point of being a coincidence.

    I don't think it's all about Amare either, though. Yes, he's far more limited now than he was before injuries, but I think it's more of how bad a fit he is here. The big glaring problem that has been here is how bad our PG play has been, really since forever at this point lol. Felton played good for a month or so in 2010 before reality set in and teams gave him the shot on the PnR, and a month of Jeremy Lin that Amare wasn't even around for. Other than that the PG play has either been god awful or some average play by Billups who is not a facilitating PG by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly not in the PnR.

    Amare's best weapon his entire career has been his PnR game, with his face up and his recently added post game as a good compliment. Without his PnR game and his current health it's hard for him to make a positive impact consistently because he's purely a finisher, don't ever expect him to make a good pass. Like I said in my last post, he was scoring 15 PPG in 25 MPG on 72% for 5 games, surely what should be enough to make good for the team and yet he was still a -7.2 per 48.

    With his game deteriorating along with his health he just isn't a guy who should be playing 30 MPG anymore with his horrible deficiencies as a defender, rebounder and as a offensive player in any way other than scoring. On NBA.com's Player Tracking Stats, which are updated nightly, we can see that Amare has grabbed just 51.9% of his rebound chances this season, a mark that places him 137 out of 157 amongst players that average 7 REB chances per game or more. That places him right behind Kyle Korver, of all people. Bargnani actually ranks 41st in REB% under that criteria, but his problem is he's only creating 8.3 REB chances per game as a 7 footer who's been playing plenty of center. Some of that is on offense, where he's not close to the rim for more offensive rebound chances, but 8.3 is really low for 30 MPG.

    To add to his woes he's only shooting 38.7% on catch and shoot opportunities, although it's only 1.2 FGA per game. His passing game is as non existent as it gets. He makes 14.7 passes per game in 18.9 MPG, creating 1.4 assist opportunities per game. He touches the ball 24.8 times per game, but only 15.4 of those coming in the front court. For some reference again we look to Bargnani, who is also not getting confused for a passer any time soon. Bargs makes 29.7 passes per game in 30.2 MPG, creating 2.6 assist opportunities per game. He touches the ball 45.9 times per game, with 28.9 touches per game coming in the front court.

    What we see there isn't about passing ability, it's about the willingness to pass. Amare just isn't a passer, both in skill and mentality. But I would like to wrap up this opus on Amare Stoudemire lol, so I will in a complimentary fashion.

    Again, to me it comes down to how bad a fit he is here more than his personal ability, deteriorating as it is. If he was on a team with a good PG, particularly one who can work the PnR, he would be far more valuable than what he can do for us. When Amare is in a PnR attack even though he'll only be finishing the high % of his scoring will still lead to defensive attention, and by turn will allow the PnR PG to get open mid range looks or to see passing lanes to set up other players. All Amare is doing here is scoring from the block at a nice %, and everything else in the game of basketball he brings a huge negative.
    First I would like to say.. Excellent Post..

    You hit the nail right on the head with Stoudemire.. And I must admit.. Our PG play is probably the biggest hindrance to the Stoudemire, Melo, and Chandler pairing being as potent as it should have been in the time that they have been together along with injuries. I think Grundwald brought Felton back simply because of that stretch he had in his first stint with the knicks.. The knock on Ray is that he can't shoot it well enough to warrant the respect of the defense to not sag on the roll man.. Whether it be Stat or Tyson.. Not to mention athletic teams like Miami blitz him after the pick is set and that often leads to turnovers or guys who cannot really facilitate anything having to make decisions with the ball.. These types of things tend to frustrate Melo and then he goes into iso Melo and things go down hill from there.

    I think the Amare rebound rate is a bit misleading.. I have to look into how that stat is compiled. Cuz Amar'e jumps for rebound even when he is completely boxed out. He is usually in poor position to even rebound because of how the offense is situated.. He is usually diving to the rim when the shot goes up so its hard to him to grab a board.. Either way the numbers are what they are and Amare for a seven footer is only good for about 7-9 boards a game for his career..

    My main issue with Bargs is that he has some skills but he doesn't do them well.. He was brought here to be a floor spacer but he doesn't make enough wide open catch and shoot shots to warrant any respect from the D.. It frustrates me to no end.. The guy is wide open and he misses but he is supposed to be the floor spacer.. To compound that his misses usually lead to fast breaks...

    Overall you are spot on when you say that Stat should be utilized in the PnR with a pass first PnR guard who can get that pass to him.. Even when Billups came here he wasn't really that guy.. Nor was Lin in my estimation.. Lin was more of a scorer that passed our of necessity as opposed to purposely looking for his Big's.. It's a huge indictment on the front office not being able to get the type of PG here that can help put this all together.. Melo shoulder's some of the blame as well.. Had that trade not gone through.. After the lockout we could have signed Melo, and traded for CP3.. And our foundation would have been set..

    All in all its water under the bridge.. I still maintain that Stat should start and he should be the primary roll man on this team.. Thats the only way u can get anything out of him.. The attention he would garner would help make life easier for Melo who is devastating when he is attacking a defense thats on its heels off the catch..
    Last edited by EnWhyKay; 01-03-2014 at 08:11 PM.
    The Dark Knight Rises to Save Gotham Once again..

  15. #15
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    I agree with EnWhyKay that Amare isn't done, if his knees cold hold up for 30 mins he would be 20-7 on 55% shooting. But the problem here is the fit. He needs a PG, he needs the right big next to him, he needs to be the main option for the frontcourt when he is in the game. We don't have a role for him that the team needs filled so were just throwing him out there and getting buckets when buckets aren't what we really need from his position when he is in there. I do think the right team, needing an offensive punch in the frontcourt, Amare can still be a big piece. Its just not gonna happen here.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 01-03-2014 at 08:23 PM.

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