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  1. #1
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    A complete and total travesty!!

    Bernard Gilkey finishing 14th in the 1996 NL MVP voting.


    Discuss.

  2. #2
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    ^That 96' campaign was either steroid induced or just the season of his life because he was never the same player after that. Next to the guys he was up against he should have finished in the top 3 in the NL MVP race.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/aw...96.shtml#NLmvp

    I think I remember hearing he had a degenerative eye condition or something after that season.

    Ironically he had a Bobby Bonilla type clause in his contract where the Dbacks have been paying him 1 million dollars a year from 2000 to the year 2017.

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/200...al-league-west
    Last edited by metswon69; 12-06-2013 at 07:40 PM.

  3. #3
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    In most MVP voting, you could maybe argue over the top 3-4 guys. This year's list maybe a couple of more guys could pose an argument. But after that, who really cares? Would you feel better if Gilkey lost but came in 8th? What's the difference?

  4. #4
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    Gilkey shoulda been Top 5. Ken Caminiti getting it was a total joke beyond belief. Gilkey had as much case for it as Caminiti did!!! Bonds deserved it.

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    Looking at the list, the only legitimate argument I can see about Caminiti was that he was a unanimous choice. I could see several other players getting some first place votes. Any one of a half dozen guys would have been worthy of first place votes based on the stats in the list.

    I have the impression that many of the baseball writers are serious about the first 4-5 votes and then plug in names for the other ten positions. Some don't fill out all ten positions at all. In most years, anyone after the fourth or fifth position is irrelevant. This list was a little deeper.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    ^That 96' campaign was either steroid induced or just the season of his life because he was never the same player after that. Next to the guys he was up against he should have finished in the top 3 in the NL MVP race.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/aw...96.shtml#NLmvp

    I think I remember hearing he had a degenerative eye condition or something after that season.

    Ironically he had a Bobby Bonilla type clause in his contract where the Dbacks have been paying him 1 million dollars a year from 2000 to the year 2017.

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/200...al-league-west

    He did have 17 HRs in 121 games the previous year with the Cardinals so it didn't come from nowhere. It was nothing like Davey Johnson or Brady Anderson's fluke seasons.

    Where he deserved extra credit is that he was a plus-defender. Rangey and a solid glove. He only had 9 errors in his 2 seasons with us. He led all NL left fielders with 310 putouts that season.

    Caminiti was a mediocre 3B who made 20 errors that year (tied most among all NL 3Bs).

    Gilkey's 1996 season is one of the most underrated in the history of the Mets franchise. Although the defensive metrics weren't available then so we really don't have the same gauges as we do today, Gilkey's 7.6 fWAR ties him for the 3rd greatest Mets season of All-Time with Carlos Beltran's 2006 season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WrightStuff82 View Post
    He did have 17 HRs in 121 games the previous year with the Cardinals so it didn't come from nowhere. It was nothing like Davey Johnson or Brady Anderson's fluke seasons.

    Where he deserved extra credit is that he was a plus-defender. Rangey and a solid glove. He only had 9 errors in his 2 seasons with us. He led all NL left fielders with 310 putouts that season.

    Caminiti was a mediocre 3B who made 20 errors that year (tied most among all NL 3Bs).

    Gilkey's 1996 season is one of the most underrated in the history of the Mets franchise. Although the defensive metrics weren't available then so we really don't have the same gauges as we do today, Gilkey's 7.6 fWAR ties him for the 3rd greatest Mets season of All-Time with Carlos Beltran's 2006 season.
    Unless you are a defender like Brooks Robinson, defense carries little weight in MVP voting. Maybe it carries a little more now with advanced and overblown stats, but as a whole it probably doesn't carry all that much influence.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    Unless you are a defender like Brooks Robinson, defense carries little weight in MVP voting. Maybe it carries a little more now with advanced and overblown stats, but as a whole it probably doesn't carry all that much influence.
    It should carry more weight. The only reason it doesn't is because of stuffy folk who refuse to adapt and learn more about the game and how players contribute to winning. They should be embarassed for only considering offense (and piss poor offensive stats at that!). Thankfully things are changing!!

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    I'll get torn apart with this but here goes…

    Defense, more than any other stat, gets rated by what people actually see rather than by numbers, errors, zones etc. Guy had 20 errors on third, another guy has 10 because his 1Bman save a bunch. Snazzy double play is remembered but the through the wickets is forgotten.

    Ike Davis is great example of this. When he came up, he made several lucky falling-over-the-railing catches early on and was ordained as a great fielder. They were "lucky" in that they were luckily hit into areas where he could look spectacular. A lot of 1Bmen could have done that given the opportunity. Ike was a good fielder, better than Delgado but nothing more. I wouldn't call him great,

    Eric Davis made a career out of a hot streak in the field one month. He was ordained a superstar. Look at his stats, he never lead the league in anything and was not much more than a better than average player. Yet some spectacular plays made him a superstar.

    Jose Reyes to some of us a great SS to others a hot dog that takes plays off.

    The great fielders…you know 'em when you see 'em.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    Ike Davis is great example of this. When he came up, he made several lucky falling-over-the-railing catches early on and was ordained as a great fielder. They were "lucky" in that they were luckily hit into areas where he could look spectacular. A lot of 1Bmen could have done that given the opportunity. Ike was a good fielder, better than Delgado but nothing more. I wouldn't call him great,
    It's funny you should say this. The metrics rated Ike Davis as an average first basemen those years he was making those catches and wowing everyone. They cut right through that garbage. Of course he's better than Delgado, Delgado is probably the worst defensive 1B to ever wear the Mets uniform. He gave up gobs of runs in those years we were competitive last decade.

    You should give them a chance. To me MVP should only consider players who are ranked near the very top of Net Runs Created (Offensive Runs Created over the average player + Defensive Runs Saved over the average player). To only consider one half of that equation seems crazy to me and as a society we did it for pretty much throughout the history of baseball.
    Last edited by WrightStuff82; 12-06-2013 at 09:11 PM.

  11. #11
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    Ike was actually well above average at 1B(12.4 UZR/150) in 2010.

  12. #12
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    What's really remarkable about that MVP list, as I said earlier, is the unanimous vote for Caminiti.
    Andres Galaraga led the league in HRs, led the majors in RBIs, bated .300, the Braves won the most games in the NL and he didn't get one MVP vote. I can understand players finishing ahead of him, but not one first place vote?

    Something was going on.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    What's really remarkable about that MVP list, as I said earlier, is the unanimous vote for Caminiti.
    Andres Galaraga led the league in HRs, led the majors in RBIs, bated .300, the Braves won the most games in the NL and he didn't get one MVP vote. I can understand players finishing ahead of him, but not one first place vote?

    Something was going on.
    Maybe because he was a one-dimensional player at 1B that had the benefit of playing half of his games at Coors?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna View Post
    Maybe because he was a one-dimensional player at 1B that had the benefit of playing half of his games at Coors?
    Yeah, but that one dimension was a hell of a lot of run production.

    But OK. Look at the guys in the 2-5 spot. Not one first place vote? Just seems hard to beiieve.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    Yeah, but that one dimension was a hell of a lot of run production.

    But OK. Look at the guys in the 2-5 spot. Not one first place vote? Just seems hard to beiieve.
    What's hard to believe about it? Each and every one of those guys were better than him. He should have been outside the Top 15.

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