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  1. #1
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    Our Management is Beyond Overrated

    Ken Holland and Mike Babcock, commonly known as two of the best in the league at what they do, are so overrated it's ridiculous. They're literally living off of their reputation. I'm going to prove it to you guys here, going into a bit of detail about some of Holland/Babcock's major ****-ups.

    Okay, so, how can one of the most successful teams in the league have bad management? We didn't until the last 5 years or so. It pretty much all started going down hill since we let Hossa go. We could keep one with our cap space, we chose Franzen. At the time that may have seen smart with Franzen's great performances in the playoffs and regular season, but it was an awful one. Any knowledge with statistics, especially shooting percentage, would've shown that Franzen was due to slow down. His shooting percentage was well above his normal shooting percentages those two years (18.6% and 16.7% in the playoffs, 13.6% and 13.8% in the regular season). That shooting percentage was bound to regress toward his career average, and it did. We all know the rest of the story, Hossa went on to be a first line two way star, and Franzen is now somebody we just hope shows up every game.

    Next up, Kyle Quincey. Colorado fans widely considered him a scrub when he was on their team. Holland used a 1st on him, we know the rest of the story. While not as awful as last year, Quincey has disappointed, as many of us expected (though I will admit I was happy with this move originally). Now Quincey is stuck in mediocrity at best.

    Moving on to Mikael Suckuelsson and Jiri Hudler. Both added/lost last offseason. Hudler went on to put up .64 ppg last year, coming out to about 52 points if he played the whole year. Being used not on the point of the power play, what do you know, Hudler's production was pretty solid. This year he's over a ppg. So, pretty much he was the secondary scoring we needed, had, and let go. What do we have instead? A much older, injury prone, washed up vet, in Mikael Samuelsson who has 2 ****ing points the last 2 years.

    Now we come to Holland's greatest **** up of all. Depending 100% on Suter and Parise, leaving no backup options and not addressing our needs in any type of move years before the inevitable retirement of Lidstrom. We all know what happened. They chose Minnesota, we're left with nothing (thank you Holland). It's just stupid management to depend completely on one player to fill Lidstrom's shoes, even if that player is Ryan Suter. We may be the Red Wings but not all good free agents are going to want to sign with us, this hasn't been the case in years, I have no clue why Holland put all his eggs into the Suter basket like he did.

    Daniel Cleary. While an alright bottom sixer (yes I just said this), Cleary is god awful in the top six. He's proved it time and time again, and yet Babcock continues to give him time there and time on the power play. It's not just on Babcock here though, Holland signed him rather than letting Nyquist and Tatar get more time. He's set back our future with this move, AND our present. I have no doubt in my mind Nyquist would have more than the 2 points Cleary has this year. We made it past Anaheim and took Chicago to 7 games BECAUSE of players like Nyquist and Brunner. They gave us secondary scoring, took pressure off of our weak defense, provided energy and great speed. Now we have neither of them in the line-up, which can partially be blamed on Holland's idiotic re-signing of Cleary.

    Honestly, I'm not sure if Holland and Babcock care more about winning or keeping loyalty to their precious vets.
    You need centerman that can play two ways and if they donít play two ways in the end, you canít win, because the guy you are counting on canít get himself on the right side of the puck enough. So sure he can score, he can score but his team loses every night, I didnít know that was the objective. I thought winning was the objective. So if you centers canít play down the middle, and canít play without the puck, you have no chance.
    - Mike Babcock

  2. #2
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    If I recall correctly, the Wings wanted Hossa and tried to sign him. Hossa wanted to stay a Wing and wanted a long-term contract. While the Wings were trying to negotiate with Hossa, one of the Hawk's star players left and the Hawks swooped in and made Hossa an offer the Wings couldn't/wouldn't match. Also, I think Hossa had a neck injury that ultimately required surgery. That could have dampened the negotiations and/or what the Wings were willing to give. Plus, Hossa didn't have a good playoff series. During this process the Wings thought they were keeping Hudler who wanted more money, went to arbitration, and then bolted to Russia anyway. The Wings lost Hossa, Kopecky, Samuelsson, Hudler, and maybe Leino. When the dust settled their weren't many FAs left (hence my disdain for Hudler). The Wings did manage to acquire Cleary and Bertuzzi though.

    The Quincey signing, I never understood. The Wings apparently saw something in him and were in desperation mode for defensemen. If I recall correctly, he was playing good for the Avs and it was suppose to be a good signing. Unless his play improves drastically, I do not see him being a Wing after this season.

    Sorry, I can't stand Hudler and am glad he is gone. I just wish the Wings had traded him the day he stepped off the plane from Russia. Because of the injuries that plaqued Sammy, I don't think you can realistically determine if that was a bad signing at the time. The NTC was mind-boggling to me.

    Suter basically screwed the Wings. I agree about putting all the eggs in one basket. The Wings just thought they were a lock for the best defensive FA and it didn't happen. While the Wings were getting jerked around by Suter, all of the available FAs were being signed. I'm not sure where the blame falls there. Most of the other defensemen that were available got overpaid.

    IMO, Cleary is the best net-front presence on the Wings and I think that is why he ends up on the PP. Cleary is not an all-star, but he does the dirty work. He goes to the corners, digs the puck out, and goes to the front of the net. As Dats said about Abby, someone plays the piano and someone has to pull, or move the piano. I am biased toward Cleary because I like the players that give 100% every night; however, after the Wings signed Weiss and Alfie, the Cleary signing didn't make a lot of sense to me. I think the Wings somehow thought that they could dump Sammy and get rid of Tootoo and/or Eaves. The Wings got Cleary for less money than Tootoo and a little more than Eaves. IMO, that is a bargain.

    The player that should be ticked off about not playing is Nyquist. I would rather have him in the lineup instead of Tatar.

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    I will respond later on, in about 8 paragraphs.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedWings13 View Post
    Ken Holland and Mike Babcock, commonly known as two of the best in the league at what they do, are so overrated it's ridiculous. They're literally living off of their reputation. I'm going to prove it to you guys here, going into a bit of detail about some of Holland/Babcock's major ****-ups.


    Okay, so, how can one of the most successful teams in the league have bad management? We didn't until the last 5 years or so. It pretty much all started going down hill since we let Hossa go. We could keep one with our cap space, we chose Franzen. At the time that may have seen smart with Franzen's great performances in the playoffs and regular season, but it was an awful one. Any knowledge with statistics, especially shooting percentage, would've shown that Franzen was due to slow down. His shooting percentage was well above his normal shooting percentages those two years (18.6% and 16.7% in the playoffs, 13.6% and 13.8% in the regular season). That shooting percentage was bound to regress toward his career average, and it did. We all know the rest of the story, Hossa went on to be a first line two way star, and Franzen is now somebody we just hope shows up every game.

    Next up, Kyle Quincey. Colorado fans widely considered him a scrub when he was on their team. Holland used a 1st on him, we know the rest of the story. While not as awful as last year, Quincey has disappointed, as many of us expected (though I will admit I was happy with this move originally). Now Quincey is stuck in mediocrity at best.

    Moving on to Mikael Suckuelsson and Jiri Hudler. Both added/lost last offseason. Hudler went on to put up .64 ppg last year, coming out to about 52 points if he played the whole year. Being used not on the point of the power play, what do you know, Hudler's production was pretty solid. This year he's over a ppg. So, pretty much he was the secondary scoring we needed, had, and let go. What do we have instead? A much older, injury prone, washed up vet, in Mikael Samuelsson who has 2 ****ing points the last 2 years.

    Now we come to Holland's greatest **** up of all. Depending 100% on Suter and Parise, leaving no backup options and not addressing our needs in any type of move years before the inevitable retirement of Lidstrom. We all know what happened. They chose Minnesota, we're left with nothing (thank you Holland). It's just stupid management to depend completely on one player to fill Lidstrom's shoes, even if that player is Ryan Suter. We may be the Red Wings but not all good free agents are going to want to sign with us, this hasn't been the case in years, I have no clue why Holland put all his eggs into the Suter basket like he did.

    Daniel Cleary. While an alright bottom sixer (yes I just said this), Cleary is god awful in the top six. He's proved it time and time again, and yet Babcock continues to give him time there and time on the power play. It's not just on Babcock here though, Holland signed him rather than letting Nyquist and Tatar get more time. He's set back our future with this move, AND our present. I have no doubt in my mind Nyquist would have more than the 2 points Cleary has this year. We made it past Anaheim and took Chicago to 7 games BECAUSE of players like Nyquist and Brunner. They gave us secondary scoring, took pressure off of our weak defense, provided energy and great speed. Now we have neither of them in the line-up, which can partially be blamed on Holland's idiotic re-signing of Cleary.

    Honestly, I'm not sure if Holland and Babcock care more about winning or keeping loyalty to their precious vets.
    In the last six months, Detroit has done the following:

    Signed Danny DeKeyser
    Signed Daniel Alfredsson
    Signed Stephen Weiss
    Re-signed the following to per's under 1M - Gustav Nyquist, Brendan Smith, Joakim Andersson
    Re-signed Drew Miller to a friendly contract
    Re-signed Pavel Datsyuk for under the market price; same with Jimmy Howard
    Re-signed Dan Cleary for a friendly contract and below market price obviously (Flyers deal for comparison)
    Signed Luke Glendening

    They've also got a top five system at the moment, with next to no first round picks. The system includes a top goaltending prospect (Petr Mrazek) who was drafted in the 4th round.
    They've drafted top defenseman prospects Ryan Sproul (OHL Norris), Xavier Ouellet (Quebec Norris), while developing mny other top prospects form back there (AA for example). Now up front they've been developing Glendening, developed Nyquist, Jurco, and have done a great job drafting the following players outside the first roudn who now look like they should have been.. Pulkkinen, Frk, Jarnkrok, and then drafted a player who is likely going to win the Quebec MVP.

    Let's look at some possible arguments that I will defuse.

    - Daniel Alfredsson. We just took Ottawa's captain who has only played in Ottawa for 20 years. That's a playoff team too. Grabbed him for 5.5M which is probably under the market place right now. We convinced him of Detroit. That's a 65-70 point player for 5.5M. Also look at the revenue that he will bring in with jersey sales alone.

    - Stephen Weiss. RW13, you wanted this deal. We got him at market place. Holland and company realized our second line issue and grabbed what looked to be a 2nd liner for a fair price. Looking back do we do the same deal? Possibly.

    - Kids are on great deals. Howard just signed for less than Corey Crawford. He's a much better goaltender and we have him on a steal. Crawford doesn't play for a ****** team either. Steal.

    - DeKeyser, well, that was bound to happen. I'll give you that. Bringing along Glendening was big.

    Last off-season was ****. We forced the CC signing with the lockotu upcoming in a week. Mikael Samuelsson was a **** signing. Jordin Tootoo is a player we needed but overpaid. Fair enough. Mistakes. There was no defenseman worth signing though. We went in for Ryan Suter but it looks like his mind was made up right away. We were confident with the defense for some odd reason and it hurt us. The Jonas Gustavsson contract looks fair.

    Most of us wanted Johan Franzen over Marian Hossa. Franzen was there, and looked consistent. He was younger as well. Hossa was invisible in the playoffs, and we couldn't risk another 15 year deal or so. Franzen's deal si much cheaper. Hossa's injury risks were a big concern too. You can't just look away from that. At the TIME, it looked like a smart move. Thath happens. If we aquired Crosby for Brendan Smith right now, Sid turns into a .60 PPG player and Smith a 1.15 Norris winner, what does that say? That we made a bad move? In retrospect, sure, but that move looks genius right now.

    We all said Hudler got overpaid. We all did. Let's be real here. We had no idea Huds would turn into that. Some players just need to move on, like Val.

    Quincey was Colorado's #2 and LA's #1 before Detroit. That move looked brilliant. Not brilliant, but fine. Gaustaud went for a first 2 years ago for crying out loud. He's a fourth line centre. Quincey's a #4, on a fair contract as well. He's had to switch his entire game up as well.

    Okay can you show me one game that Cleary has been in the top six this season? He hasn't. You know who has? Tomas Tatar. Tatar's done nothing. He's scoreless. He's turned the puck over. He's done very little. Cleary's also been slotted with plugs for the most part. Nyquist I agree with you. He's been ****ed over, but from what I've heard, he'll be up shortly. Tatar has had his chances, and continues to get them.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wingman View Post
    If I recall correctly, the Wings wanted Hossa and tried to sign him. Hossa wanted to stay a Wing and wanted a long-term contract. While the Wings were trying to negotiate with Hossa, one of the Hawk's star players left and the Hawks swooped in and made Hossa an offer the Wings couldn't/wouldn't match. Also, I think Hossa had a neck injury that ultimately required surgery. That could have dampened the negotiations and/or what the Wings were willing to give. Plus, Hossa didn't have a good playoff series. During this process the Wings thought they were keeping Hudler who wanted more money, went to arbitration, and then bolted to Russia anyway. The Wings lost Hossa, Kopecky, Samuelsson, Hudler, and maybe Leino. When the dust settled their weren't many FAs left (hence my disdain for Hudler). The Wings did manage to acquire Cleary and Bertuzzi though.

    The Quincey signing, I never understood. The Wings apparently saw something in him and were in desperation mode for defensemen. If I recall correctly, he was playing good for the Avs and it was suppose to be a good signing. Unless his play improves drastically, I do not see him being a Wing after this season.
    He's been a failure, plain and simple. Holland has a thing for bringing back players and it hurt him here.

    Sorry, I can't stand Hudler and am glad he is gone. I just wish the Wings had traded him the day he stepped off the plane from Russia. Because of the injuries that plaqued Sammy, I don't think you can realistically determine if that was a bad signing at the time. The NTC was mind-boggling to me.
    Well it's a fact that this player you can't outstand is doing great in Calgary, being exactly what we needed (what he did his last year): secondary scoring.

    Suter basically screwed the Wings. I agree about putting all the eggs in one basket. The Wings just thought they were a lock for the best defensive FA and it didn't happen. While the Wings were getting jerked around by Suter, all of the available FAs were being signed. I'm not sure where the blame falls there. Most of the other defensemen that were available got overpaid.
    It's true there weren't many options. But not planning for Lidstrom's retirement was just stupid. Everybody knew it was going to happen soon enough, it did, and Holland has nothing prepared to minimize his loss outside of Suter.

    IMO, Cleary is the best net-front presence on the Wings and I think that is why he ends up on the PP. Cleary is not an all-star, but he does the dirty work. He goes to the corners, digs the puck out, and goes to the front of the net. As Dats said about Abby, someone plays the piano and someone has to pull, or move the piano. I am biased toward Cleary because I like the players that give 100% every night; however, after the Wings signed Weiss and Alfie, the Cleary signing didn't make a lot of sense to me. I think the Wings somehow thought that they could dump Sammy and get rid of Tootoo and/or Eaves. The Wings got Cleary for less money than Tootoo and a little more than Eaves. IMO, that is a bargain.
    Cleary scored 9 goals last year (most of which playing with Datsyuk), 12 the year before. He just doesn't have it anymore, and it's painfully obvious. I'm okay with him having a bottom six role, but not if it holds Tatar or Nyquist back in any way.

    The player that should be ticked off about not playing is Nyquist. I would rather have him in the lineup instead of Tatar.
    Agreed. Sadly I don't see Nyquist playing much this year, if at all.
    You need centerman that can play two ways and if they donít play two ways in the end, you canít win, because the guy you are counting on canít get himself on the right side of the puck enough. So sure he can score, he can score but his team loses every night, I didnít know that was the objective. I thought winning was the objective. So if you centers canít play down the middle, and canít play without the puck, you have no chance.
    - Mike Babcock

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BranWingss View Post
    In the last six months, Detroit has done the following:

    Signed Danny DeKeyser
    Signed Daniel Alfredsson
    Signed Stephen Weiss
    Re-signed the following to per's under 1M - Gustav Nyquist, Brendan Smith, Joakim Andersson
    Re-signed Drew Miller to a friendly contract
    Re-signed Pavel Datsyuk for under the market price; same with Jimmy Howard
    Re-signed Dan Cleary for a friendly contract and below market price obviously (Flyers deal for comparison)
    Signed Luke Glendening
    They've also got a top five system at the moment, with next to no first round picks. The system includes a top goaltending prospect (Petr Mrazek) who was drafted in the 4th round.
    They've drafted top defenseman prospects Ryan Sproul (OHL Norris), Xavier Ouellet (Quebec Norris), while developing mny other top prospects form back there (AA for example). Now up front they've been developing Glendening, developed Nyquist, Jurco, and have done a great job drafting the following players outside the first roudn who now look like they should have been.. Pulkkinen, Frk, Jarnkrok, and then drafted a player who is likely going to win the Quebec MVP.
    Yes, I agree that our farm is good now. I said up until recently for that. You can't deny the lack of a top 6 forward or top 4 dman not being there though.

    Let's look at some possible arguments that I will defuse.

    - Daniel Alfredsson. We just took Ottawa's captain who has only played in Ottawa for 20 years. That's a playoff team too. Grabbed him for 5.5M which is probably under the market place right now. We convinced him of Detroit. That's a 65-70 point player for 5.5M. Also look at the revenue that he will bring in with jersey sales alone.
    Agreed. Good signing.

    - Stephen Weiss. RW13, you wanted this deal. We got him at market place. Holland and company realized our second line issue and grabbed what looked to be a 2nd liner for a fair price. Looking back do we do the same deal? Possibly.
    I did. Weiss has been nothing short of awful so far, but it's still early in the season. Looking back I may have kept Filppula with Weiss' concussion seeming to have changed his game. But that's in hindsight and it's way too early. We can't really call this a good or bad signing yet, but I liked Holland's intent here.

    - Kids are on great deals. Howard just signed for less than Corey Crawford. He's a much better goaltender and we have him on a steal. Crawford doesn't play for a ****** team either. Steal.
    The Howard signing was solid, not really a steal, unless you're only comparing it to Crawford and Smith's deals. Those are considered over-payments for good reason.

    - DeKeyser, well, that was bound to happen. I'll give you that. Bringing along Glendening was big.
    I'd give Nill a lot more credit for this than Holland. Like you said, it was a gimme.

    Last off-season was ****. We forced the CC signing with the lockotu upcoming in a week. Mikael Samuelsson was a **** signing. Jordin Tootoo is a player we needed but overpaid. Fair enough. Mistakes. There was no defenseman worth signing though. We went in for Ryan Suter but it looks like his mind was made up right away. We were confident with the defense for some odd reason and it hurt us. The Jonas Gustavsson contract looks fair.
    That it was. We lost out on the two big guys and overspent on players we have no need for that are now blocking Tatar and Nyquist from ice time. Holland ****ed up big time.

    Most of us wanted Johan Franzen over Marian Hossa. Franzen was there, and looked consistent. He was younger as well. Hossa was invisible in the playoffs, and we couldn't risk another 15 year deal or so. Franzen's deal si much cheaper. Hossa's injury risks were a big concern too. You can't just look away from that. At the TIME, it looked like a smart move. Thath happens. If we aquired Crosby for Brendan Smith right now, Sid turns into a .60 PPG player and Smith a 1.15 Norris winner, what does that say? That we made a bad move? In retrospect, sure, but that move looks genius right now.
    Franzen also had injury risks at the time, you can't use this against Hossa here. Sure it's in retrospect, but a simple glance at shooting percentages would have shown Franzen was about to regress at least a little bit. Hossa also outplayed Franzen significantly in that regular season.

    We all said Hudler got overpaid. We all did. Let's be real here. We had no idea Huds would turn into that. Some players just need to move on, like Val.
    I said it at the time of the Samuelsson signing, and I'll say it again: I'd much rather give Hudler 4M than give Samuelsson 3M. If you're going to overpay, do it for the player that is coming off of a solid season, doesn't have an injury history, and isn't washed up.

    Quincey was Colorado's #2 and LA's #1 before Detroit. That move looked brilliant. Not brilliant, but fine. Gaustaud went for a first 2 years ago for crying out loud. He's a fourth line centre. Quincey's a #4, on a fair contract as well. He's had to switch his entire game up as well.
    No he wasn't. They had Doughty that year. Even in his rookie year, Doughty was far superior to Quincey. I'll give you the #2 on Colorado defense but that really isn't saying anything at all....
    Gaustad for a 1st is generally considered one of the biggest rapes in recent history. It's the exception, not the standard. He's had to switch his game up because he's been useless offensively. Might as well get something out of him defensively.

    Okay can you show me one game that Cleary has been in the top six this season? He hasn't. You know who has? Tomas Tatar. Tatar's done nothing. He's scoreless. He's turned the puck over. He's done very little. Cleary's also been slotted with plugs for the most part. Nyquist I agree with you. He's been ****ed over, but from what I've heard, he'll be up shortly. Tatar has had his chances, and continues to get them.
    True, he hasn't been. I was more so talking about last year. Tatar is technically in his rookie year. Last year it took him a bit to get going as well. Once he finally did, Holland gave him a big "**** you" and sent him back down. The whole offense is struggling regardless lately, not sure how you can blame Tatar. Don't believe the ******** about Nyquist coming up soon, the Wings just brought up Glendening rather than Nyquist.
    You need centerman that can play two ways and if they donít play two ways in the end, you canít win, because the guy you are counting on canít get himself on the right side of the puck enough. So sure he can score, he can score but his team loses every night, I didnít know that was the objective. I thought winning was the objective. So if you centers canít play down the middle, and canít play without the puck, you have no chance.
    - Mike Babcock

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    He's been a failure, plain and simple. Holland has a thing for bringing back players and it hurt him here.
    It happens. He's also been our #3, so obviously he's not a liability and has come up big at times. He's stuck playing with our worst defenseman. His role was changed from a two-way defenseman that focus' more offensively than defensively to the complete opposite. He isn't able to pinch with Smith. When he does pinch though, he's great at it.

    It's true there weren't many options. But not planning for Lidstrom's retirement was just stupid. Everybody knew it was going to happen soon enough, it did, and Holland has nothing prepared to minimize his loss outside of Suter.
    Most of us were thinking that he'd be another year. We were also pretty damn confident with our defense of Kronwall, Ericsson, White, Quincey, Smith, and whomever else is in as the #6. I'm glad we didn't overpay for a defenseman that year. I can't think of another top pairing defenseman that hit the market that year. Can you?

    Yes, I agree that our farm is good now. I said up until recently for that. You can't deny the lack of a top 6 forward or top 4 dman not being there though.
    What do you mean?

    I did. Weiss has been nothing short of awful so far, but it's still early in the season. Looking back I may have kept Filppula with Weiss' concussion seeming to have changed his game. But that's in hindsight and it's way too early. We can't really call this a good or bad signing yet, but I liked Holland's intent here.
    Bingo. Weiss was thought as a consistent player. He's missed a lot in the past 2 seasons though. We gambled. I liked the gamble at the time. As for Val. It's obvious he needed to move on. He's also playing in an offensive system. I root for his success.

    The Howard signing was solid, not really a steal, unless you're only comparing it to Crawford and Smith's deals. Those are considered over-payments for good reason.
    How many other goaltenders have re-signed since Howard's? Not many. I'm guessing those type of contracts continue to trend and Howard's contracts to look awesome.

    That it was. We lost out on the two big guys and overspent on players we have no need for that are now blocking Tatar and Nyquist from ice time. Holland ****ed up big time.
    Sure. But would you be happy with giving Parise that much? That's too much for Suter, not let's talk about Parise. He looks like a 65 point forward, not the 90 point forward that he once was. He made the right decision. He moved on. Asf or the signings, brutal. They were short-term though. He failed with Tootoo (based on size/cap) and Sammy. Tatar's getting big time though. He hasn't been performing. Nyquist could have been called up too, but he wasn't.

    Franzen also had injury risks at the time, you can't use this against Hossa here. Sure it's in retrospect, but a simple glance at shooting percentages would have shown Franzen was about to regress at least a little bit. Hossa also outplayed Franzen significantly in that regular season
    Contract difference? Franzen's on a great contract right now, which 3 years ago, I was calling this deal crazy. Hossa's been injured a lot more than Franzen since thent oo, and Franzen has torn his ACL. Hossa's good for 60 games a season. Franzen's good for 60-75. Solid difference actually.

    I said it at the time of the Samuelsson signing, and I'll say it again: I'd much rather give Hudler 4M than give Samuelsson 3M. If you're going to overpay, do it for the player that is coming off of a solid season, doesn't have an injury history, and isn't washed up.
    And I agree. However, it's not the first two years that scared us. It was the last two years on Hudler's contract.

    No he wasn't. They had Doughty that year. Even in his rookie year, Doughty was far superior to Quincey. I'll give you the #2 on Colorado defense but that really isn't saying anything at all....
    Gaustad for a 1st is generally considered one of the biggest rapes in recent history. It's the exception, not the standard. He's had to switch his game up because he's been useless offensively. Might as well get something out of him defensively.
    Kyle Quincey outscored Drew Doughty. Doughty logged 2 more minutes a game, I'll give you that. However, Quincey was logging big PK time while Doughty was not. Quincey was more consistent. Doughty got exposed a decent amount during his rookie season.

    True, he hasn't been. I was more so talking about last year. Tatar is technically in his rookie year. Last year it took him a bit to get going as well. Once he finally did, Holland gave him a big "**** you" and sent him back down. The whole offense is struggling regardless lately, not sure how you can blame Tatar. Don't believe the ******** about Nyquist coming up soon, the Wings just brought up Glendening rather than Nyquist.
    Tatar started struggling after the first few games. He wasn't even the glue to that line. He'd finish on his chances but looked the same as this season. It was obvious that Nyquist was better, and we were better with Nyquist. As for him struggling and the team? Yup. Doesn't change the fact that Dats and Z look good while struggling while Tatar has been a turnover machine. He isn't passing. He'll keep battling for the puck, do too much with it, and end up taking a slapshot at the point or having the puck leave the blue line.

    Nyquist cannot play more than 2 games without passing waivers I believe. Reports are, once we deal Tootoo or something, he'll be up for good. He's not getting called up until he's up for good. Stupid? Yes and no. Stupid that we have him down, and not stupid that we're looking not to lose him.

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    Geez this got rough quickly. Ill answer from your first post and for me I am going to keep this as brief as possible:

    We had a chance to sign BOTH Franzen and Hossa. We got Franzen signed and still had a contract offer out there for Hossa, Hossa CHOSE the LONGER contract (the cap hits were the exact same) with Chicago. So because they didnt want to have multiple long term contracts on the books and players on contracts into their 40's is a bad thing? Heck maybe Holland had some insight and realized that those deals were going to get cracked down on and on the next CBA tough penalties would be happening. We in no way just let him go, ive heard that so much geez no one in their right mind just let a player like him go. Talk to Pittsburgh same thing happened to them with Hossa.

    We traded a first rounder for a top 4 D at a little over 3m cap hit....Where is the issue here? Yes he isnt the best but he isnt our anchor, was never bllled to be and we have a stock pile of good young players did we really need that first round pick that we may not have seen for 3-5 years? Who would you of had take Quincey's spot that year and the year after we had a chance at? Im not a Quincey fan at all, and cant wait for his contract to be up and hope he is gone, but there was no problem with this trade.

    We all were happy Hudler was going, we all said Calgary overpaid. I am not going to argue over hindsight. Yep we should have re signed him and then gotten this production out of him, but we all wanted him gone and all agreed he got overpaid....so again where is the problem here?

    Sammy I get it he messed up giving him the contract he did, both in term and the NTC. But boy I can call out many many more contracts given out throughout teams in the NHL that are worse. Sammy is off the books after this year, at least we dont have Leino's contract.

    How is putting his eggs in Suter's basket that bad? As a matter of fact I just read from Michael Russo that before Parise and Suter agreed to come to MN together Parise was told that Suter was going to Det and Suter was the one who called Parise about going to MN together. What as an armchair general do you do to replace one of the best defenders of all time with no draft picks higher then what 17th in Kindl? The best defender on the market besides Suter was whats his name that went to TB? Im sure glad we didnt pay him 5.5m per. The year before the best defender on the market? Hell there wasnt anyone who is a franchise defender on the market for a very long time. Get off the soap box, there is no easy way to replace 5, and the first year without him our D wasnt that bad at all as a group!

    Has Cleary played in the top 6 this year? No not that I can remember, Bert has, Tatar has, Weiss, Aflie, Mule, Z, Abby, Pasha.....but I cant remember Cleary sooooo where is the argument I dont get it. He is a good bottom 6 player, yes it created a contract problem but he is still a good bottom 6er and great character player.

    Now to respond to your second post:

    Quincey hasnt been a complete failure. He's a #4 for a good price. No one expected him to be an anchor or be a #2 and if you did...its your own fault. Also I recently read that Quincey was Nill's idea and Nill's push to get him. Dallas needs D horribly and if Nill liked him that much maybe he will swing a deal with us and we can call up XO or AA or Marchenko.

    Hudler happened....Again ill say again no one expected him to do this well and we all said it was a bad contract. Yep I wish we would have signed him NOW seeing how well he is doing, but at the time we were all glad he was gone.

    HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR LOSING THE BEST DEFENDER OF THIS TIME WITHOUT A TOP 10 PICK AND NO FRANCHISE D HITTING THE MARKET???? TELL ME PLEASE

    They're trying to get Nyquist up, especially with how bad our secondary scoring has been, but teams also know we need to unload so again whats your plan that will work no questions asked? Its a business, very few teams have cap space to take on a contract nevertheless the roster space like us. This is a product of the new CBA, nothing we can do about it.

    Now to your third post:

    I dont understand your no top 6 forward top 4 D thing about our prospect pool, we have a couple that could be both.

    Technically we got Alfie for less then 5.5 so its a great signing and has paid off by far so far.

    We again all wanted Weiss over Fil, as a matter of fact we were all willing to pay Weiss more then what Holland actually got him for. So there is a win in the signing. His production should come around give it time. Do you guys understand the differences between Florida and here?!? Huge.

    Howie's deal was a steal. No questions asked. He is arguably a top 5 goalie making money around the #10 mark.

    Why does Nill get more credit for DeKeyser then Holland. He was coming here.

    We needed to sign a defender and CC was the best out there. And we bought him out...so who cares about that anymore. We didnt know that Nyquist or Tatar were going to be a for sure thing at the beginning of last season hence re signing Bert and signing Sammy. We needed forwards so he signed someone!

    Ive been over the Hossa and Franzen thing already and dont think I need to be over that again but really shooting % is what your stuck on? Man you mean SK 74 wasnt going to keep up his 2010 25% shooting %....man had us all fooled.

    We were all glad Huds was gone, dont back pedal you were glad at the time. I would rather of had neither if were going to go with our own golden scenarios but we dont get that.

    I think he just mixed the numbers up there, he was LA's 2 and Colorados 1 before coming here and plays as our 4 at a good cap hit...Instead your saying what you would rather have the first rounder that would still at this point probably be 3 years away at least?

    They brought up Glendening over Nyquist because it was for a 4th line RW role with about 8min of TOI to fill...How does calling up Nyquist help? And also if Nyquist plays I think its around 3 more NHL games he CANNOT be sent down without hitting waivers....we needed a short term bottom line solution and honestly Glendening looked great.

    We havent missed the playoffs in 20+ years, were still a winning team, we have a competitive roster and one of the best farms in the league, were 12 games into the season....12....And were already burning the buss because were going through a slide? Geez cmon RW

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    I feel as though Pidg is my European twin. God damn.

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    Holland has been one of if not the best GM at switching from the no cap to cap era. EVERY GM is going to make a bad signing at some point or another. So Sammy was bad, CC wasnt that bad but needed to be cut cap wise so we bought him out, this is Bert's final go and he still gives a lot so im fine with that...Tootoo wasnt a bad contract he is just expendable, Eaves was a heck of a player a couple years ago before his injuries (jaw/concussion). Its holding back Nyquist and Tatar sure, and I hate that as much as you do but they (old guys) are off the books next year, the cap will rise, and people will have more contract room next year.

    He has to do something in the off season, like I said we didnt know/think Tatar or Nyquist were going to be a for sure thing when we signed Sammy. And heck Nyquist wasnt that impressive in his long chance last year except the playoffs, which as you said with Franzen we cant judge a player just off their playoff appearances.

    The only true thing I am upset about is us not re-signing Brunner. But hey he offered him exactly what he signed for in NJ he thought he was worth more. Nothing we can do really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pidg88 View Post
    Geez this got rough quickly. Ill answer from your first post and for me I am going to keep this as brief as possible:

    We had a chance to sign BOTH Franzen and Hossa. We got Franzen signed and still had a contract offer out there for Hossa, Hossa CHOSE the LONGER contract (the cap hits were the exact same) with Chicago. So because they didnt want to have multiple long term contracts on the books and players on contracts into their 40's is a bad thing? Heck maybe Holland had some insight and realized that those deals were going to get cracked down on and on the next CBA tough penalties would be happening. We in no way just let him go, ive heard that so much geez no one in their right mind just let a player like him go. Talk to Pittsburgh same thing happened to them with Hossa.
    Fair enough. Neither of us can really prove anything here though. I'd much rather have given that long term contract to the proven star than the player who had just broken out and was due to regress.

    We traded a first rounder for a top 4 D at a little over 3m cap hit....Where is the issue here? Yes he isnt the best but he isnt our anchor, was never bllled to be and we have a stock pile of good young players did we really need that first round pick that we may not have seen for 3-5 years? Who would you of had take Quincey's spot that year and the year after we had a chance at? Im not a Quincey fan at all, and cant wait for his contract to be up and hope he is gone, but there was no problem with this trade.
    We were split about 50/50 on this trade. You were against it, I and a couple others were for it. That may have been my inaccurate knowledge of Quincey though. Any Avs fan could've brought me up to speed about him (and they did). Lashoff could've replaced him last year, Ouellet could've this year. Quincey isn't exactly a player that's hard to find. A mediocre inconsistent defensive dman isn't exactly a hot commodity.

    We all were happy Hudler was going, we all said Calgary overpaid. I am not going to argue over hindsight. Yep we should have re signed him and then gotten this production out of him, but we all wanted him gone and all agreed he got overpaid....so again where is the problem here?

    Sammy I get it he messed up giving him the contract he did, both in term and the NTC. But boy I can call out many many more contracts given out throughout teams in the NHL that are worse. Sammy is off the books after this year, at least we dont have Leino's contract.
    Both were overpaid, give me Hudler any day of the week by a mile. Samuelsson was injury prone before this contract, so excusing his play because of injuries doesn't work (I'm not saying you've done this).

    How is putting his eggs in Suter's basket that bad? As a matter of fact I just read from Michael Russo that before Parise and Suter agreed to come to MN together Parise was told that Suter was going to Det and Suter was the one who called Parise about going to MN together. What as an armchair general do you do to replace one of the best defenders of all time with no draft picks higher then what 17th in Kindl? The best defender on the market besides Suter was whats his name that went to TB? Im sure glad we didnt pay him 5.5m per. The year before the best defender on the market? Hell there wasnt anyone who is a franchise defender on the market for a very long time. Get off the soap box, there is no easy way to replace 5, and the first year without him our D wasnt that bad at all as a group!
    The year before, Wisniewski and Ehrhoff were both FA's. Holland, being the conservative no-risk GM he is, didn't trade for either's rights, and we lost out on both. One of those players would certainly be helping our defense right now. Luke Schenn was available on the market as well. I'm not saying it was an easy task, but to completely depend on Suter reeks of awful management.

    Has Cleary played in the top 6 this year? No not that I can remember, Bert has, Tatar has, Weiss, Aflie, Mule, Z, Abby, Pasha.....but I cant remember Cleary sooooo where is the argument I dont get it. He is a good bottom 6 player, yes it created a contract problem but he is still a good bottom 6er and great character player.
    That is mostly what I'm upset with. If he's not brought back we probably have Tatar in every game and possibly Nyquist up already. Not to mention more cap space.

    Now to respond to your second post:

    Quincey hasnt been a complete failure. He's a #4 for a good price. No one expected him to be an anchor or be a #2 and if you did...its your own fault. Also I recently read that Quincey was Nill's idea and Nill's push to get him. Dallas needs D horribly and if Nill liked him that much maybe he will swing a deal with us and we can call up XO or AA or Marchenko.
    A 1st for a medicore $4 that brings nothing offensively isn't a good price for a 1st if you ask me. I'm all for trading him.

    Hudler happened....Again ill say again no one expected him to do this well and we all said it was a bad contract. Yep I wish we would have signed him NOW seeing how well he is doing, but at the time we were all glad he was gone.
    At the time, I would have taken Hudler over Samuelsson. Now, I still would obviously.

    HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR LOSING THE BEST DEFENDER OF THIS TIME WITHOUT A TOP 10 PICK AND NO FRANCHISE D HITTING THE MARKET???? TELL ME PLEASE
    I'm not saying to replace him completely. I'm saying Holland should've not completely relied on Suter to replace Lidstrom (and Stuart). More moves should have been made to the defense, ones that would've made the group stronger. Let's be honest, we're lucky Ericsson has stepped up into a solid #2, or else our defense would be even worse, and it's already pretty ******.

    They're trying to get Nyquist up, especially with how bad our secondary scoring has been, but teams also know we need to unload so again whats your plan that will work no questions asked? Its a business, very few teams have cap space to take on a contract nevertheless the roster space like us. This is a product of the new CBA, nothing we can do about it.
    They clearly care more about the loyalty to the vets than playing our future top 6 forwards when they re-signed Cleary. This ****ed Nyquist. Holland made this decision.

    Now to your third post:

    I dont understand your no top 6 forward top 4 D thing about our prospect pool, we have a couple that could be both.
    In the last 6 years or so, we have literally drafted and developed zero top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen (besides Kindl, which is arguable anyway). We have some that could be as soon as this year, but I'm talking about our pretty awful drafting before that.

    Technically we got Alfie for less then 5.5 so its a great signing and has paid off by far so far.
    Never said this was a bad signing. I'm fine with good vets taking up roster spots.

    again all wanted Weiss over Fil, as a matter of fact we were all willing to pay Weiss more then what Holland actually got him for. So there is a win in the signing. His production should come around give it time. Do you guys understand the differences between Florida and here?!? Huge.
    See earlier post. As I said, it's too early to tell on this.

    Howie's deal was a steal. No questions asked. He is arguably a top 5 goalie making money around the #10 mark.
    He's around #7, you could easily argue him as high as 4, but as low as like 10. Making his money just about right.

    Why does Nill get more credit for DeKeyser then Holland. He was coming here.
    Nill's son played college hockey and was his childhood friend or whatever. You get the point, Holland didn't have to do anything special to make this signing. Every team wanted him and he was essentially ours from the beginning.

    We needed to sign a defender and CC was the best out there. And we bought him out...so who cares about that anymore. We didnt know that Nyquist or Tatar were going to be a for sure thing at the beginning of last season hence re signing Bert and signing Sammy. We needed forwards so he signed someone!
    I actually never said anything about CC. I was okay with the signing because we needed a 7th defenseman. Nyquist was coming off of several years of pure dominance in the ahl. He was ready, so was Tatar.

    Ive been over the Hossa and Franzen thing already and dont think I need to be over that again but really shooting % is what your stuck on? Man you mean SK 74 wasnt going to keep up his 2010 25% shooting %....man had us all fooled.
    I'm not sure who you're referring to as SK 74. Shooting percentage has been proven to be a very good predictor for regression. Not sure what you're saying here though.

    We were all glad Huds was gone, dont back pedal you were glad at the time. I would rather of had neither if were going to go with our own golden scenarios but we dont get that.
    I've said it like 3 times now. I definitely would've taken Hudler over Samuelsson, even at the time it happened.

    I think he just mixed the numbers up there, he was LA's 2 and Colorados 1 before coming here and plays as our 4 at a good cap hit...Instead your saying what you would rather have the first rounder that would still at this point probably be 3 years away at least?
    Yes. We are retooling, in a couple of years Datsyuk will be gone and you will be missing that first rounder.

    hey brought up Glendening over Nyquist because it was for a 4th line RW role with about 8min of TOI to fill...How does calling up Nyquist help? And also if Nyquist plays I think its around 3 more NHL games he CANNOT be sent down without hitting waivers....we needed a short term bottom line solution and honestly Glendening looked great.
    Fair enough. We wouldn't have to worry about Nyquist having a roster spot as much if Holland didn't go give his homeboy Cleary a contract.

    We havent missed the playoffs in 20+ years, were still a winning team, we have a competitive roster and one of the best farms in the league, were 12 games into the season....12....And were already burning the buss because were going through a slide? Geez cmon RW
    Nowhere have I said that I think this season is over or anything like that. I'm upset with the management that has ****ed up many things the past 3-4 years or so.
    You need centerman that can play two ways and if they donít play two ways in the end, you canít win, because the guy you are counting on canít get himself on the right side of the puck enough. So sure he can score, he can score but his team loses every night, I didnít know that was the objective. I thought winning was the objective. So if you centers canít play down the middle, and canít play without the puck, you have no chance.
    - Mike Babcock

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    I feel like I learned a lot just reading this back and forth.



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    What I dont get is where you are saying they have messed up SO much. You said fair enough on the Hossa/Franzen thing. No point here.

    We have agreed were ok with the Quincey trade, ok. No point.

    Yes I would rather have over paid Hudler but we didnt know he we be as good as he is now and we were happy he is gone, so no point there. But it wasnt really a Hudler or Sammy situation. It was a Hudler priced himself out and we needed a forward.

    Nyquist had not proven he was NHL ready and again his first year was nothing sensational. I agree Sammy didnt work so you have 1 point there.

    Signing Cleary created a contract problem but is a good bottom 6er....Tie breaker ill give you the point here.

    Wiz and Ehrhoff are not franchise D that replace 5. Im more then happy with Big E over those two as our #2's. And Ehrhoff's contract is for 10 years....wow. Also if you remember Wiz took a shot at Detroit after signing. Im good with what we have over them. No points they arent franchise D.

    I know DeKeysers story....Nill was no more of a factor then us just being Detroit was. He was coming here, end of story Nill or not. No point.

    Sergei Kostitsyn put up a 25% shooting % one year and 18% the next and 8% the next. Yes its a good tool for plotting regression but I dont think it came down to well Franzen's shotting % is around 16% so we need to re sign him over Hossa. Cmon

    So in all I think I gave you 2 points, Sammy and the roster cram...I mean were kinda sounding a little spoiled if those are our problems. A ****** contract that we tried to buy out this summer and are done with at the end of this year and a crammed roster in the first year after a new CBA that lowered the cap by ~6m and will work it self out over next year. I cant give you a point for the Lidstrom thing because idk what Holland could have done to replace him with late draft picks and no FRANCHISE D on the market (Wiz and Ehr and not franchise D). He got Q to replace Stuart and mitigate the losses a little bit. Unless he would have packaged someone like Nyquist+Smith+1st+ something to acquire one but then wouldnt we just be kicking our selves for trading Nyquist? And Schenn isnt a franchise D and we didnt have an asset like JVR to trade for him.

    I mean im glad we dont have Buf, Cal, Win and heck even the flyers problems and I could list probably 10 more teams. Posts and rants about how terrible management and coaching has been just sound to me like whining over how spoiled we have been for 20 years.

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    Marian Hossa is 35 years old in January. He's on his 5th year of a 12 year contract. He's making $5,300,000 per year and here's the big part.. has not had exactly or over 1.00 PPG since 06/07 with the Atlanta Thrashers. His numbers have been dropping consistently for years in Chicago. He's battled a bunch of injuries since then as well.

    Johan Franzen is 34 years old in December. He's on year 5 of his 11 year deal worth $3,950,000 per year. He has not been below .70 PPG since the 07/08 season, the year that he broke out. Now I know it's somewhat similar, Hossa is better, but I'm comfortable with Franzen. We offered Hossa a fair deal to return, and he did not. It happens.

    I'm probably the biggest Brian Lashoff fan on htis website. He could not have filled Kyle Quincey's spot last season. Not at all. Lashoff averages 16 minutes a night, and Quincey, 20 minutes. Ouellet looked good in one game, but giving him top 3 minutes for a full season is a no-no. So in short form, no, Ouellet nor Lashoff could step into Quincey's shoes. Quincey was better offensively in Colorado and Los Angeles, but has not been given the same role due to us having no defensive defenseman until now. Even now, he's a big PK'er. I'd think he's gone in the off-season, but he did well for us. Not great, but he played okay at times. Clear cut #3 right now, yes, ahead of DeKeyser.

    Jiri Hudler was a dud in 11/12 was he not?

    Wisniewski and Ehrhoff, eh? Aren't both overpaid right now and more so offensive defenseman? Also, Wisniewski has been injured more so than not thus far in Columbus. He's not looking too great. Hoff is a straight up offensive defenseman. We didn't need that at the time with the kids coming up being more so offensive than defensive.

    Gustav Nyquist is in Y3 of the AHL. He came up through his rookie season and was NHL ready. He played last year, Y2 in the AHL and was leading the league in points prior to the call-up. He should be 100% up now, agreed, but to think he'd become an instant star is nuts. I thought he'd be on the team full-time last year though. As for him only working in the playoffs, I call BS. He was creating chances and otuskating everyone on the roster.

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    Well, I guess I'm going to have to take up for my man Cleary. The Cleary signing was a good deal. The Wings got Cleary for a steal. The Wings got a veteran forward that can play on all 4 lines for 1.75 mil. Had Cleary not wanted to stay with the Wings so badly, he would be on another team right now for more money. There is no doubt in my mind about that. Babcock is the one that wanted Cleary back. If Cleary is keeping Tatar out of the lineup, so be it. Cleary and Tatar play totally different roles. Cleary is a net front presence, Tatar isn't and never will be. Tatar has yet to outplay Cleary. This is not me trying to run down Tatar. He may end be a really good player for the Wings. IMO, his play is suffering a little right now because he wants to be on the roster so bad that he is trying too hard. He is trying to do too much and needs to start playing within the system.

    The Sammy signing. The Wings wanted a big body, RH shot that could play on the PP. It was that simple. There weren't any FA forwards available. Parise was the best forward available and then there were slim pickings. The Wings didn't know they were going to get Brunner at the time. IMO, Sammy would not be a Red Wing right now, if he had not been injured during the buy-out period. I think that was and is what has caused the Cap problems. I think the Wings are probably still trying to get rid of Sammy and/or make him want to leave; hence, his lack of playing time and being stuck on the 4th line.

    Hudler priced himself right off the Wings roster. Just like Filppula and Brunner did. It is that simple. Frankly, I would rather have Brunner on the roster than either one of them. I think Babcock is one of the other reasons Hudler is gone. He felt Hudler was not strong enough on the puck and got knocked off of the puck too easily. I mentioned this once before, the Wings had been trying to trade Hudler. Would the Wings have resigned Hulder? Of course they would have, just like they would have resigned Flip, but they weren't going to give that kind of money to either one of them. "He (Hudler) is a small player who plays small. The league has seen short players in the past, but they seem to have a mean streak or something special that makes people forget their size. In the past, Hudler has been abused come playoff time. While regular season play is important, a player is measured by how well they play in the playoffs. The fear with Hudler is that once the playoffs start, and the referee’s whistles tend to disappear, that Hudler will spend more time on his butt than on his skates."

    Holland has been on every potential deal out there. He can't make players come here. Name one big name signing of late that the Wings weren't mentioned somewhere in those talks. I will name a few: Suter, Parise, Nash, Bouwmeester, Schultz.
    Last edited by Wingman; 10-29-2013 at 08:22 AM.

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