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  1. #1
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    Philip Rivers HOF?

    Rivers HOF?

    Finally, couldn’t have said it better myself.

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...f-fame-chances

    “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
    Daniel Patrick Moynihan, 1927

    Someone put the numbers together and factually stated what a number of objective football fans have been saying to the wind for years… whereas most talk perception over reality – this is reality.

    Sometimes hard work and dedication is noted above the larger media bias. Philip Rivers is the perfect example. The Chargers, and we fans, are lucky to have him. Fact.

    For impatient readers;

    Is Philip Rivers a Hall of Fame quarterback?

    While the critics are likely to jump the gun with a resounding "no," the question should be given much more serious consideration.

    If either of his 2004 draft classmates, Eli Manning or Ben Roethlisberger make it into the Pro Football Hall of Fame—Rivers would most certainly deserve the nod.

    Statistically, there is no comparison between Rivers and the other two.

    He is more productive:
    • Rivers: 241.6 passing yards per-game.
    • Roethlisberger: 234.8 passing yards per-game.
    • Manning: 232.7 passing yards per-game.
    He puts more points on the board:
    • Rivers: 5.4 touchdown percentage.
    • Roethlisberger: 5.0 touchdown percentage.
    • Manning: 4.7 touchdown percentage.
    He's more accurate:
    • Rivers: 63.7 completion percentage.
    • Roethlisberger: 63.0 completion percentage.
    • Manning: 58.6 completion percentage.
    He's more efficient:
    • Rivers: 6.94 adjusted net yards per attempt.
    • Roethlisberger: 6.43 adjusted net yards per attempt.
    • Manning: 5.94 adjusted net yards per attempt.
    And he protects the ball better:
    • Rivers: 2.6 interception percentage.
    • Roethlisberger: 2.9 interception percentage.
    • Manning: 3.3 interception
    • percentage.

    You'll note the trend of Rivers ranking first, Roethlisberger ranking second and Manning ranking third in all the above categories. It's ironic knowing that many people would rank the three quarterbacks in the opposite order.

    They'd be wrong.

    Because not only has Rivers performed at a higher level across the board, but he has managed to be able to do so with perhaps the weakest supporting cast of the three.

    Manning has had Plaxico Burress, Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks and Mario Manningham to throw the ball to at various points in his career. Roethlisberger has had Hines Ward, Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace catching his passes.

    Roethlisberger rode the coattails of an elite defense to two championships while Manning did the same, albeit, with weaker defenses that stepped up to elite levels in the postseason.
    Rivers has thrown to a trending-downward Antonio Gates and Vincent Jackson who began to develop before the Chargers let him go. Beyond that, there have been a lot of receivers who have never been notably productive in their entire careers.

    When Rivers won the passing title in 2010, he became the first player in over 20 years to lead the NFL in passing while not having a single one of his receivers eclipse the 800-yard receiving mark.

    That's 4,710 passing yards divided among 17 players to catch a pass from Rivers.

    Gates led the entire team with only 782-yards receiving.

    Rivers has managed to do things with less support than Manning and Roethlisberger. While many will be quick to mention "rings" in support of the latter two, it is no coincidence that they both rank below Rivers in terms of "individual performance" across the board.

    Keep in mind, Roethlisberger won his first Super Bowl by completing nine of 21 passes (42.8) for 123 yards, zero touchdowns and two interceptions.

    His passer rating in Super Bowl XL was a horrendous 22.6.
    In his second Super Bowl season, Roethlisberger completed 59.7 percent of his passes for only 3,301 yards, 17 touchdowns and 15 interceptions.
    His passer rating (80.1) and total QBR (46.82) both ranked 24th in the league in 2008.

    And still, people wonder why he has been accused of coat-tailing his way to two championships.
    During Manning's first Super Bowl season, he led the entire league with 20 interceptions. The QBR had yet to be developed, but Manning's abysmal 73.9 passer rating ranked 25th in the NFL.
    Overlooking these serious deficiencies in individual contributions to those championships is to prove yourself incapable of rationally analyzing the game. Regardless of the end result, one cannot ignore the steps taken to get there.

    2013 only continues to accentuate Rivers' dominance.

    Coming into the season, some had dubbed Roethlisberger a "sleeper MVP candidate," which may seem laughable now.

    Manning has not been much better, once again leading the league in interceptions (seven in only two games).

    The stat-line isn't close.

    Rivers ranks second to only Peyton Manning with a total QBR of 82.48—which is astounding considering that he came into 2013 with one of the weakest receiving corps in the league.
    Manning ranks 23rd (43.92) and Roethlisberger ranks 28th (31.76).

    Rivers is tied with Aaron Rodgers, ranking second only to Peyton Manning with seven touchdown passes.

    Dating back to Week 13 of the 2012 season, Rivers boasts a 15-to-1 touchdown to interception ratio.

    While his individual performance placed him ahead of both Manning and Roethlisberger years ago, his dominating performance in 2013 continues to separate Rivers from the rest of the 2004 draft class pack.

    Ryan Michael is a Senior Writer for Bleacher Report.

  2. #2
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    Hells yeah
    My 2014 Adopted Packer: Blow Job Raji




  3. #3
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    IMO he's the best QB we have ever had. Yes, that includes the great Dan Fouts. So if Fouts can make HOF, then Rivers should be able to get in as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sunsfan88 View Post
    IMO he's the best QB we have ever had. Yes, that includes the great Dan Fouts. So if Fouts can make HOF, then Rivers should be able to get in as well.
    Hey brother, good to meet ya!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by chargerSD View Post
    Hey brother, good to meet ya!
    Nice to meet you too man! I'm glad there's at least another Chargers fan posting in the NFL forum also!

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunsfan88 View Post
    Nice to meet you too man! I'm glad there's at least another Chargers fan posting in the NFL forum also!
    and don't they suck bro?

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    Sorry.. I dont make it over to the Chargers thread often.. but is this for real?

    Really? seriously.. Rivers HOF? Even his crying and complaining is second rate next to Cutler.

    Ok.. Im from San Diego.. Im in San Diego right now and I have watched most of the games he has played.
    He has at times had excellent wide outs to throw to. He had who I think is one of the greatest running backs to ever play and by far the best Charger back in LT.
    He has been blessed to have Gates as a target who is always there and sure handed.
    There were times when he had a pro bowl heavy O line. ~ you can't say he was constantly without weapons.
    ~ and what has he done to show he was capable of taking advantage of these gifts? nothing.
    He puts up good numbers when he is on (like now he is on fire) but then nothing.

    He is not Brady.. not Manning (not even little Manning).. he is not Farve or Rogers and he is certainly not Brees. His quarterbacking while certainly of high enough quality to have his number retired and enter the charger hall of fame...

    He is hot right now after a couple of horrible horrible years. He gets jittery... loses sight of the downfield action and puts the ball in places it should not be. I have seen him go on hot streaks and make fantastic throws. But..
    His overall play in my opinion is not of a level that will put him into the NFL hall of fame.

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    So if you aren't Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Favre or Peyton, then you aren't good enough to make the HOF. Gotcha.

    You lost all credibility when you said Eli is better than Rivers. Eli hasn't even earned the ability to hold Rivers jock strap. If Rivers had Eli's running game, defense and OL, then Rivers would have won at least 3 rings by now.

    And btw Rivers only had a "great" running game TWICE in his life. The first time was his FIRST EVER season and the second was when they just hired a new coach so Rivers was getting adjusted to the new coaching staff tha first year. LT was trash in 2008 and 2009. He couldn't even get a 4 YP average either of those we gone despite being given the ball so damn much. Then the 3rd year, Rivers became an elite QB.
    Last edited by sunsfan88; 10-17-2013 at 02:58 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunsfan88;2722465in2
    So if you aren't Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Favre or Peyton, then you aren't good enough to make the HOF. Gotcha.

    You lost all credibility when you said Eli is better than Rivers. Eli hasn't even earned the ability to hold Rivers jock strap. If Rivers had Eli's running game, defense and OL, then Rivers would have won at least 3 rings by now.

    And btw Rivers only had a "great" running game TWICE in his life. The first time was his FIRST EVER season and the second was when they just hired a new coach so Rivers was getting adjusted to the new coaching staff tha first year. LT was trash in 2008 and 2009. He couldn't even get a 4 YP average either of those we gone despite being given the ball so damn much. Then the 3rd year, Rivers became an elite QB.
    No. I feel only the top 3 or 4 of a position in each generation should make the hall.

    So imo brady, peyton, rodgers, and maybe brees

  10. #10
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    right.. " Eli hasn't even earned the ability to hold Rivers jock strap" ... Eli's ring fingers would like a word with you.
    Dont be blinded by your hate of Eli (Im in SD and I remember well how this town was burned when little Manning had his way with the GM) I still dont know why SD fans hold that anger even though it worked out well for them ~ they got Rivers and Nate Kaeding and a quick look a a roid'd up Merriman.

    And yes.. if you are not Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Favre or Peyton and you are a NFL qb right now.. you are not good enough to make the HOF. Im not even sure all the guys on that list are going into the HOF.

    The HOF is for guys like Montana, Bradshaw, Elway (gad I hate Elway), Staubach, Young and Unitas.

    Dont get me wrong.. I didnt say Rivers wasn't good enough to hold somebodies jockstrap... I just dont think he has played at a HOF level.

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    I don't hate Eli because he didn't want to come here. I don't blame him though I wonder how much having a RB like LT and learning from behind Brees would have helped his game.

    And please are you seriously gonna bring the rings argument into this? Trent Dilfer won a title, does that make him better than Rivers, Ryan and as good as Rodgers, Brees?

    Eli won superbowls because of his defense. HE SCORED 17 pts in his first Super Bowl. Let me repeat, SEVENTEEN POINTS. His defense shut down that best offense in NFL history that year and hence they won. My dog Rio could have probably been QB for the Giants and beat NE in the Super Bowl if he had that great of a defense.

    And Rivers is very close to Rodgers and Brees in terms of play not Super Bowl wins.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Sorry.. I dont make it over to the Chargers thread often.. but is this for real?

    Really? seriously.. Rivers HOF? Even his crying and complaining is second rate next to Cutler.

    Ok.. Im from San Diego.. Im in San Diego right now and I have watched most of the games he has played.
    He has at times had excellent wide outs to throw to. He had who I think is one of the greatest running backs to ever play and by far the best Charger back in LT.
    He has been blessed to have Gates as a target who is always there and sure handed.
    There were times when he had a pro bowl heavy O line. ~ you can't say he was constantly without weapons.
    ~ and what has he done to show he was capable of taking advantage of these gifts? nothing.
    He puts up good numbers when he is on (like now he is on fire) but then nothing.

    He is not Brady.. not Manning (not even little Manning).. he is not Farve or Rogers and he is certainly not Brees. His quarterbacking while certainly of high enough quality to have his number retired and enter the charger hall of fame...

    He is hot right now after a couple of horrible horrible years. He gets jittery... loses sight of the downfield action and puts the ball in places it should not be. I have seen him go on hot streaks and make fantastic throws. But..
    His overall play in my opinion is not of a level that will put him into the NFL hall of fame.
    It’s alright; I suppose I should not expect you to know much about Rivers except generally accepted media spin. You are a Raider fan. Did you actually read the article? It answers almost all your questions, including what weapons Philip Rivers actually had, few.

    LT? And when did LT leave the Chargers? Go ahead, look it up, might surprise you beyond the fact as my fellow Charger fan points out; even all those years ago LT was winding down. So we’ll pass on that “weapon.”

    Tall Receivers? Name one? Malcolm Floyd has been injured almost as often as he played and as the article clearly points out Philip Rivers had the benefit of an up and coming VJax just in time to see him leave to Tampa.

    What other “weapon” you want to discuss? Darren Sproles? Brees stole Sproles to the Saints three years ago.

    Denarius Alexander, a throw away receiver from the Rams who began to work with Philip and is out on season ending injury like Floyd. A rookie V.Brown, who started well then broke his ankle in the first game last year and is just returning. Meachum was a bust and returned to NO. Eddie Royal after a poor season last year has finally come on this year, even heard of him since the second game?

    No, as the article clearly points out Philip Rivers has not had the weapons the others have had and it’s a team that wins championships not just a QB. Don’t think so? Then ask Big Ben why he has one of the worst QB performances in SB history at a miserable 22. QBR. Or Eli whose QBR is an av. 82. While Philip Rivers worst year, no o-line or weapons, multi-ints, is a QBR of 88.+

    Philip Rivers, in Brady/Belichecks case has not even had the coaching support, almost the opposite do I really have to tell a Raider fan about Norv Turner? If so go talk to your other fans…

    Rivers is 1pt. below Brady & PManning in career QBR. Philip Rivers may not reach the SB, that’s a team issue, but just like Marino and Fouts he will have earned it before he’s done…

  13. #13
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    Well... ok my view of Rivers is not from media spin.. it is from living here in SD and being forced to watch him play almost every weekend of the season.. (when/if the home games are on tv)

    the article is based on statistics... numbers... not a view of "this guy is one of a very few in a generation or era to accomplish what he has done"

    if we are going to quote people to make points.. then I go to the NFL HOF
    Marino:Marino's performance the following season was unlike any seen in NFL history as he guided the Dolphins to a 14-2 record and a division crown. He became the first player ever to pass for 5,000 yards in a single season finishing with a remarkable 5,084 yards. His 48 touchdown passes obliterated the previous record, 36 touchdowns passes held by Y.A. Tittle and George Blanda. By season's end, he had set six league records and was named the NFL's Most Valuable Player. In the 1984 AFC Championship Game, Marino passed for 421 yards and threw four touchdowns in the Dolphins' 45-28 shootout win over the Pittsburgh Steelers, earning his first and only trip to the Super Bowl. In Super Bowl XIX, Marino completed 29 of 50 passes for 318 yards, passed for one touchdown and threw two interceptions as the Dolphins fell to the San Francisco 49ers 38-16. Marino's passing prowess continued at a record pace and by the end of the 1995 season had supplanted Hall of Fame quarterback Fran Tarkenton as the career passing leader in attempts, completions, yards, and touchdowns. Marino's career totals are staggering as he completed 4,967 of 8,358 passes for 61,361 yards, and threw 420 touchdowns during his 242-game NFL career. Thirteen times in his career Marino passed for 3,000 yards or more in a season which includes the six seasons he reached the 4,000-yard plateau. He passed for 300 yards in a game 63 times and threw for 400 or more yards in a game 13 times. Marino was named first- or second-team All-Pro eight times and earned All-AFC honors six times. -

    Fouts:In 15 seasons, Fouts completed 3,297 passes for 43,040 yards and 254 touchdowns and an 80.2-point rating. He also rushed for 476 yards and scored 13 touchdowns. At the time of his retirement, he was one of only three quarterbacks to pass for more than 40,000 yards. He led the NFL in passing yardage four straight years from 1979 to 1982, and became the first player in history to throw for 4,000 yards in three consecutive seasons. Fouts was the AFC Player of the Year in 1979 and then, in 1982, he was named the NFL Most Valuable Player by the Pro Football Writers of America, the AFC Player of the Year by United Press International and the NFL Offensive Player of the Year by Associated Press. He was also an All-Pro choice in 1979, 1982, and 1985 and All-AFC in 1979 and 1982. He played in six Pro Bowls in a seven-year span. In both 1980 and 1981, Fouts led the Chargers to the AFC championship game. The Oakland Raiders defeated the Chargers 34-27 in 1980 in spite of Fouts' 336-yard, two-touchdown passing performance. The 1981 AFC title game was played in 59-below-zero wind chill conditions. Still, Fouts completed 15 passes for 185 yards and the Chargers’ only touchdown, a 33-yard pass to Kellen Winslow, in a hard-fought loss to the Cincinnati Bengals. -

    But.. those are not my opinion they are just the HOF statement. I can tell you about Fouts as I watched just about every game he played in as a Charger. I bleed with him every time he took a shot to the chin. I cheered for him every time he pushed his beaten pudgy body up from the turf to scowl at the opposing defense and he would come out punching every time. He didnt cry and whine. If one of his players didnt put out the effort Dan thought he should then Fouts would grab him by the facemask, pull him close and as we say now.. "tear him a new one". Dan Fouts was one of the few QB's I have seen that regardless of situation or despair.. could force his team to play to a higher level. In his mind he was never beaten while there was time on the clock.

    Back to numbers... the numbers put up by Marino cannot be compared to what you see from Rivers or anyone else playing today. The game was different then. Receivers were targets before and after the catch.. QB's were meat just waiting to be pounded into a red sloppy mess. For Marino to do what he did is astounding.

    Thats why you cant make a HOF argument based on statistics of who has got good numbers right now. Numbers lie when defining greatness. Statistics are skewed and twisted depending on the desired outcome of the argument. Im not trying to convince you or anyone of my opinion.. it is just that.. my opinion about Rivers and the HOF.
    Love him if you want... he deserves much respect for what he has done HOF of no HOF. But do not kid yourself into thinking he is the equal of Joe Montana..Or Troy Aikmen.. Bart Starr or Jim Thorpe or Sammy Baugh.. or even yes.. Dan Fouts. (even I choke a little when putting Fout's name with those guys and I loved watching Dan Fouts)

    Go look at the numbers for Gayle Sayers in the HOF database.. numbers.. not so good... impact on the game "revolutionary"

    Look up Sandy Kofax in the MLB HOF stats.. numbers.. not so much... affect on his team and the league.. huge.

    Or do fool yourself and believe that numbers cant lie and define HOF entry. It is your opinion you will have it.. and I will have mine. That is what makes us fans right?
    Last edited by Ghost; 10-17-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: thick fingers / small keyboard

  14. #14
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    Weapons..Rivers, who took over as the starter in San Diego in 2006, hit LaDainian Tomlinson 56 times out of the backfield in 2006, 60 times in 2007 and 52 times in 2008. During those years LT was tearing up the league in rushing in those 3 years rushing for almost 4,500 yards.
    Sproles was Rivers best weapon in many many games.. if you didn't see that then you were not watching. Teams had to scheme to stop him on 3rd down.. that left the door open for Gates and the wides.

    Gates??? you dont think Antonio Gates was a weapon??? nobody mentions Gates? You ignoring him too? Michael Turner?
    Think about it.. he had a pro bowl O line... Tomlinson..Antonio Gates.. Sproles ..Turner.. Lorenzo Neal .. Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd and the most accurate kicker of all time all at the same time.

    If that is not loaded with weapons .. then nothing is. Tell me that having that lineup is not going to make the numbers look good.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Well... ok my view of Rivers is not from media spin.. it is from living here in SD and being forced to watch him play almost every weekend of the season.. (when/if the home games are on tv)

    the article is based on statistics... numbers... not a view of "this guy is one of a very few in a generation or era to accomplish what he has done"............

    That is what makes us fans right?
    I could down your list and answer your points one by one, but we’re talking Philip Rivers here; I don’t have to say it, you’re and my opinions are probably irrelevant, even if you ignore the facts in the original article, let’s hear, or read, from real charger experts including people who were there for the Fouts and now Rivers experience;

    Please actually read it; http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/...?#article-copy . These guys at UT know more about the Chargers then you & I ever will.

    “Fouts threw five interceptions in playoff games vs. Houston and Miami. Rivers never has thrown more than two interceptions in a game, including seven playoff starts. In the accuracy department, it isn’t even close.

    Over 181 games, 171 as a starter, Fouts completed 3,297 of his 5,604 attempts (58.8 percent) for 43,040 yards and 254 touchdowns against 242 interceptions (80.2 passer rating). Under him, the Chargers were 86-84-1, but it must be noted that, during his pre-Coryell years, the franchise was dreadful.

    Over 84 games, 80 as a starter, Rivers has thrown 2,455 passes, completing 1,564 (63.7 percent) for 19,661 yards and 136 touchdowns against 58 interceptions (97.2 rating). Under him, the Chargers are 55-25.

    Fouts had the privilege of throwing to two Hall of Fame receivers, Winslow and Charlie Joiner, not to mention John Jefferson and Wes Chandler (and there are receivers in the Hall now who weren’t as good as Chandler). He had backs Chuck Muncie and James Brooks who could catch the ball. And he stood behind one of the stoutest offensive lines in NFL history.”

    And their final conclusion? “This being the case, you take Rivers over Fouts.”

    And if Fouts was a first ballot Hall of Famer… then Philip Rivers most certainly should be.

    AND I loved Dan Fouts, Air Coryell and the whole experience…

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