Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500

    primer on offensive vs defensive value at SS

    Some time back Lucchie opined:

    A great defensive shortstop is more valuable than a great offensive shortstop. A shortstop can save more hits and runs with his glove than he can ever produce with a bat.
    So wrong....

    Look at teams that have won with a SS that could not hit. The Mendoza line crew of Mark Bellanger, Ozzie Smith (could not hit early in his career), Don Kessinger, and Al Weiss with the Mets could never hit. And, there are many who hit around .250 and won. How many great hitting shortstops have won a World Championship compared to great defensive shortstops? I'd take Iglesias now, with a .180 average, rather than sign Reyes. From what I understand, he is better defensively than Reyes, and thus more valuable IMHO.
    Top 10 SS oWAR career ended after 1965:

    Arod 112.7
    Jeter 94.1
    Yount 82.3
    Ripken 77.4
    Larkin 67.5
    Trammell 62.3
    Banks 62.0
    Tejada 51.2
    Fregois 50.1
    Campy 47.6

    Top 10 SS dWAR career ended after 1965:

    Ozzie S.: 43.4
    Belanger: 39.4
    C Ripken: 34.6
    Aparicio: 31.6
    OVizquel: 28.4
    OGuillen: 22.5
    McMillan: 21.6
    Sanchez: 20.5
    G Gagne: 18.8
    Hansen: 16.2


    Geez, 10th highest offensive player has a higher oWAR than the highest dWAR player... So much for that misconception.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 09-03-2013 at 09:55 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,429
    vCash
    1500
    This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Portland, Maine
    Posts
    2,793
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston-Born View Post
    This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.
    LOL dam

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Posts
    64,457
    vCash
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston-Born View Post
    This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.
    Bags is always right, guys. He'll never not make sure we all know it


    I do agree that it's a silly point, tho.

    I also think that Jose is gone and we're doing great, so whatever. Moving along...
    I no longer care about anything here except for the Entertainment Forum, which sucks; the Music forum, which sucks; and the Magic forum, which does NOT suck.

    Love y'all!

    Except for all of y'all.

    #FreePablo
    #FreeManRam
    #FreePablo

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,798
    vCash
    1500
    First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go.

    Second, Arod hasn't been a SS in 8 yrs and his "O" numbers are inflated like his biceps.

    Third, when you compare one predominantly offensive SS(Larkin) with one very defensive minded SS(Smith), you get very similar overall WAR numbers.

    Fourth, you are a smart guy, you must realize that you are misusing stats just to prove your overall point. Defensive WAR numbers are much more difficult to come up with. During the "dead ball" era I would say that a defensive "wiz" was more important. We may be heading to something more like that over the next few years.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,798
    vCash
    1500
    Less than half of Fregosi's years in the "bigs" was he purely a SS. Robin Yount played his last nine years at a different position. In '86 Ernie Riles took over for him at shortstop because his defense was a liability. Yount put up some big WAR numbers after being moved from SS.
    Last edited by sawxfan; 09-04-2013 at 01:12 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by sawxfan View Post
    First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go.

    Second, Arod hasn't been a SS in 8 yrs and his "O" numbers are inflated like his biceps.

    Third, when you compare one predominantly offensive SS(Larkin) with one very defensive minded SS(Smith), you get very similar overall WAR numbers.

    Fourth, you are a smart guy, you must realize that you are misusing stats just to prove your overall point. Defensive WAR numbers are much more difficult to come up with. During the "dead ball" era I would say that a defensive "wiz" was more important. We may be heading to something more like that over the next few years.
    The point is it is no longer the dead ball era or the little dead ball era. Lucchie's misconception on the relative value of offense and defense is skewed (based in large part from growing up in the little dead ball era and those that played during that time), and he's not the only one to hold such views. Detroit coming in and Iggy making some nice plays gives an opportunity to discuss it again.

    As for examples (AROD, Ozzie, Larkin), I could have just as easily given the league numbers for oWAR and dWAR, and see six AL players sit at 2.0 dWAR and above and fifty AL players sit at 2.0 oWAR and above.

    With the influx of the new hitting stars of the past 3 years, I see no evidence that we are headed to a 3rd dead ball era, and I haven't misused anything. I'm also not the only one to hammer at Lucchie's POV's.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by sawxfan View Post
    Less than half of Fregosi's years in the "bigs" was he purely a SS. Robin Yount played his last nine years at a different position. In '86 Ernie Riles took over for him at shortstop because his defense was a liability. Yount put up some big WAR numbers after being moved from SS.
    The same is true of some of the fielder first players I listed. Look at my last post the 2013 AL overall hitting and fielding stats clearly show that hitting >> fielding even in this "era" which is on the more balanced side than much of the past 60 years.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston-Born View Post
    This has really been eating at you for a while, huh? While I agree on this, I don't know if a new thread was needed just to further ridicule Lucchie.
    This thread isn't about Iggy or Drew per se (I didn't list any stats nor make any directed arguments), and that quote didn't come from that thread either, therefore it's a new topic.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 09-04-2013 at 08:08 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by sawxfan View Post
    First off, I must agree with everyone else that someone needs to let #%$& go. .
    Fascinating POV for a poster that has fourteen (14) posts on PSD over
    the past 4 months a few odd days and twelve (12) of them were directed at me.

    My ratio aimed at Lucchie across all of PSD in that same time frame is well over a magnitude lower expressed as percentages. Let's see you take your own advice.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Boston
    Posts
    3,429
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    This thread isn't about Iggy or Drew per se (I didn't list any stats nor make any directed arguments), and that quote didn't come from that thread either, therefore it's a new topic.
    Then why is this in the RS forum and not the main MLB forum?

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    39,922
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston-Born View Post
    Then why is this in the RS forum and not the main MLB forum?
    It could be in the MLB Forum, it could be in the Sabermetric Forum, or it can be here. If a mod wants to move it, that's fine with me. Given how quiet the group has been, they might want to think about that first.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    174
    vCash
    1500
    dWar is NOT a calculable stat. Why? it's really simple. A great play that turns a hit into 1 or 2 outs does not produce any further information as to how many runs would have scored if he had not made the play. For instance, in Monday's game a ball is hit up the middle and looks like the Sox have 2 runners on (either 1st and 2nd or 1st and 3rd) but Iggy makes a great play turning it into a 2 out no runners on (Peralta would not have done so). So, tell me, if Iggy doesn't make the play, how many runs do the Sox score and how does this affect the dWar? You CANNOT tell. dWar is a garbage stat.
    Last edited by lucchesicourt; 09-05-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    174
    vCash
    1500
    Arod 112.7- no WS as a SS
    Jeter 94.1- 4
    Yount 82.3- 1
    Ripken 77.4-1
    Larkin 67.5-1
    Trammell 62.3-Trammel 1
    Banks 62.0-none
    Tejada 51.2-1
    Fregois 50.1-none
    Campy 47.6-3
    Total- 12

    Ozzie S.: 43.4- 1
    Belanger: 39.4-1
    C Ripken: 34.6-1
    Aparicio: 31.6-1
    OVizquel: 28.4-none
    OGuillen: 22.5-2
    McMillan: 21.6
    Sanchez: 20.5 These last 4 are not the top defensive SS- what happened to Tony
    G Gagne: 18.8 Fernandez, and Davey Concepcion,
    Hansen: 16.2

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,081
    vCash
    1500
    How should Bogs fair defensively at SS if/when given the job next year? Would he be league average, or worse?

    With the way WMB has come on it is hopefully safe to say he is the 3B next year (hopefully they leave him there and do not move him, unless Bogs has to get out of SS)

    The left side of our infield could be quite shaky with WMB (not a very good fielder) and Bogs.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •