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  1. #1
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    salty's defense/game calling impact

    I don't mind the price they are currently paying him at..However, Ive dug a bit and saw a more alarming trend than even I figured.

    2013-
    Ross (23 games) Catcher ERA- 3.08
    Salty (78 games)- 4.05

    2012-
    Shoppach- 4.04 (May be off due to 1/3 of his starts being with another team).
    Salty- 4.88

    2011-
    Varitek (64 starts)- 3.57
    Salty (96 starts)- 4.65

    Now granted maybe '12 is a little closer and '13 has obviously been short sample size...But combined the trio of Teck, Shoppach, and Ross have caught around 130 games for Boston which is deff enough of a sample too question his ability behind the plate.

    Over the last yrs hes been about a total run HIGHER, now even if you throw is coincidences... And lets say he makes a 0.5 Run diff, isn't that extremely alarming? That would be a diff of -81 prorated.

    It is very hard too measure catcher defense, But DWAR (And other well known saber stats) don't take into account blocks/framing etc and obviously its hard too measure catcher era as that is largely a pitchers doing, But I feel as though while it is hard too measure..It still needs too be taken into account and atleast be attempted too measure.

    http://www.overthemonster.com/2012/2...atcher-defense

    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...rticleid=16096

    2 pretty interesting articles...and im not saying these stats are 100% accurate (Really, no stat is that cant be measured with absolute numbers) ..Still interesting imo and atleast its thought out and attempting too measure something that is rarely measured.



  2. #2
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    Boston pitchers (like peavy said himself) love salty behind the plate due to his game calling and familiarity with the pitchers. It's one if the reasons why I think he gets resigned

  3. #3
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    No pitcher is gonna come out and say he's bad at game calling, but he is.

  4. #4
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    Bags has broken it down before in the past with each pitcher individually separated. If I remember right almost every pitcher does way worse with Salty catching compared to every other catcher. I don't know how much of it is his fault, and how much of it is just a product of him catching more games then anyone else. It's a huge sample now though.

    I think his pitch calling and framing can be terrible. You see more of that with the rookie pitchers. Pitch selection was night and day when Ross caught Webster and when Salty caught him. Likewise Workman got crushed in his relief stint which Salty caught, they've made sure Lavarnway has caught each of his subsequent starts. They used the excuse that Lavarnway was familiar with Workman because he caught him in the minors, he only caught him two times in the minors. You can't say they believe he is a smart veteran presence behind the plate when they try to avoid using him with rookie pitchers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by grandsalami View Post
    Boston pitchers (like peavy said himself) love salty behind the plate due to his game calling and familiarity with the pitchers. It's one if the reasons why I think he gets resigned
    Beckett for one didn't want to work with him.

    I really don't care if we have to go with 2 out of these 3 next year:

    * Ross, $2.5M defensive stopgap, Lavarnway next year

    And this trio the year after:

    * same $2.5M stopgap, Lavarnway and Vazquez

    the offense will blow both years, but Salty's offense is nowhere near being great enough to make up for his sub standard D, and I don't want to see premium money spent on a catcher that is closer in value to the bottom 1/3 of starting catchers in the bigs then the 4th-7th slot a multi-year deal will set the Sox back.

    They got good value out of him, but a pig in a dress with lipstick is still a pig.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 08-05-2013 at 08:16 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Beckett for one didn't want to work with him.
    To be fair, Becket didn't want to work at all.

    But seriously he was not a Salty fan, and was probably the only one with the balls to show it.

  7. #7
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    Yeah I really don't even think he's worth a QO regardless of how little we have for options. Regardless of what is said publicly, he's not a good game caller and he's terrible at framing pitches. Add in his horrendous defense and inconsistent offense that seems to decline when the games start meaning more (not saying it's connected, it's just inconvenient) and you have yourself a pretty terrible catcher. I don't care how many HR's he hits, if your offense is reliant on your catcher hitting 20-25 HR's to score runs, then you have bigger problems. Lucky for us we aren't reliant on his HR's, thank god.

    Also, I know this seems like a minor thing but I can't stand the fact that Salty doesn't give a the pitcher a target until he's already in his throwing motion. I feel like it makes the pitcher somewhat reactive to where he puts the glove rather than already zoned into the spot. It also seems to encourage Salty's lunging to catch pitches he should easily frame had he already had the glove up. Varitek always gave a big target before the pitcher even went into his windup and I've noticed a lot of other successful catchers do it too.

    Patriots Forum Hall of Fame Class of 2013
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Lavigne43- View Post
    Bags has broken it down before in the past with each pitcher individually separated. If I remember right almost every pitcher does way worse with Salty catching compared to every other catcher. I don't know how much of it is his fault, and how much of it is just a product of him catching more games then anyone else. It's a huge sample now though.

    I think his pitch calling and framing can be terrible. You see more of that with the rookie pitchers. Pitch selection was night and day when Ross caught Webster and when Salty caught him. Likewise Workman got crushed in his relief stint which Salty caught, they've made sure Lavarnway has caught each of his subsequent starts. They used the excuse that Lavarnway was familiar with Workman because he caught him in the minors, he only caught him two times in the minors. You can't say they believe he is a smart veteran presence behind the plate when they try to avoid using him with rookie pitchers.
    I ran through the numbers this year and the results were mixed. A few guys were throwing slightly better to Salty while others were substantially better with Ross. On the whole the scenario still says "catchers not named Salty are better."

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Beckett for one didn't want to work with him.

    I really don't care if we have to go with 2 out of these 3 next year:

    * Ross, $2.5M defensive stopgap, Lavarnway next year

    And this trio the year after:

    * same $2.5M stopgap, Lavarnway and Vazquez
    Prob doesn't mean an absolute ton, But Dan Butler in Pawtucket is hitting .278/.375/.493 line and grades as a slightly above average defensive catcher. Hes turning 27 in oct, but maybe he replaces lavarnway as the occasional starter? too early too tell though, Good chance butlers performance is a flash in the pan...But 200+ atbats is a decent sample.

    Obviously I wouldn't expect him too be a starter, but maybe as the 3rd guy..Basically lavarnways role.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    Prob doesn't mean an absolute ton, But Dan Butler in Pawtucket is hitting .278/.375/.493 line and grades as a slightly above average defensive catcher. Hes turning 27 in oct, but maybe he replaces lavarnway as the occasional starter? too early too tell though, Good chance butlers performance is a flash in the pan...But 200+ atbats is a decent sample.

    Obviously I wouldn't expect him too be a starter, but maybe as the 3rd guy..Basically lavarnways role.
    What happens to Lavarnway? Will Ross have anything else next year? Will Butler rise above being 38-39-40 on the 40 man (I.E. a AAAA player at best) - or will he get left off? We have a number of guys with higher trajectories that need to be covered before Butler.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    What happens to Lavarnway? Will Ross have anything else next year? Will Butler rise above being 38-39-40 on the 40 man (I.E. a AAAA player at best) - or will he get left off? We have a number of guys with higher trajectories that need to be covered before Butler.
    I see no reason why Ross couldn't handle 55 or so games as the primary backup.

    Lavarnway has an OPS+ of 47 over the past 3 yrs, Beyond bad even for a spot starter it seems.Hes done better this yr, but hes also only had 52 PA's.

    The reason I did bring up Butler was not so much that I think he's an important guy too look at..But it was more so due to the very limited options on the FA market. outside of mcCan there's not a ton, And I wouldn't want too give a 30 yr old catcher too much $/yrs in which he will surely get in such a weak class.



  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bos_Sports4Life View Post
    I see no reason why Ross couldn't handle 55 or so games as the primary backup.

    Lavarnway has an OPS+ of 47 over the past 3 yrs, Beyond bad even for a spot starter it seems.Hes done better this yr, but hes also only had 52 PA's.

    The reason I did bring up Butler was not so much that I think he's an important guy too look at..But it was more so due to the very limited options on the FA market. outside of mcCan there's not a ton, And I wouldn't want too give a 30 yr old catcher too much $/yrs in which he will surely get in such a weak class.
    McCann will be an overpriced pipe dream - which BC will side step. There are a number of good defensive catchers on the market next year.

    Lavarnway is a better defensive catcher than Salty already IMO (with less than 50% as many games played in the Minors/Majors combined as Salty and way less before that). It's hard to judge a player who doesn't get many PA's, but Lavarnway was above AL average catcher as a hitter in '11 and is close to average this year.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #13
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    Really thought Lavarnway could post a .200 ISO... looks like that's not happening anytime soon. Don't see him being more than a platoon guy. 80 wRC+ with a .343 BABIP is bad, but his walk rate will go up at least. Still think if he posts an 80 wRC+ he's better than Salty all things considered.

  14. #14
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    Having one tough inning now...


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Having one tough inning now...


    To forgetting this inning, god willing.

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