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  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueblue2 View Post
    If that's the case he won't see much playing time. At this point in his career Metta is better suited for the 4 where he's closer to the basket and they Have Kmart and Amare (for now) from the get go, not to mention Melo is also capable of playing the 4. They don't have to play him if his presence on the court is a net negative.

    And just because he had a terrible shooting season last year doesn't mean that he's unable to shoot. He's only 28, he should be in his prime as a player. It's not like he's an old man, he was just affected by injuries the last two seasons. He's shown that he can be an efficient shooter and that he's capable of playing as a 2nd option to a scorer that likes to dominate the ball and attack the paint. When the raptors were around a .500 team with some hope for the future he was a key part of the team and played well with Bosh as a 2nd scoring option.

    Even when Bosh left and he became the first option he had a very solid year. His efficiency dropped a little due to more defensive attention, but overall he put up a very good season. The next year he only played 30 games due to injury which clearly affected his play on the court when he did play. Even then he managed to average 19 points a game, albeit on low efficiency. But taking a sample of 30 games isn't the same as analyzing an entire season. Had he not been injured his numbers would have regressed to the mean. When you only play 30 games in a season one bad streak of games can kill your efficiency numbers.

    The next year was the same story with injury, although I could definitely see him laying it on thick because he was unhappy with being on a team that does things like hand out a 6 million dollar contract to Landry Fields. This year he's back on a winning team, he's a 2nd/3rd option again where he's been very efficient over his career, he's on a roster that allows for his minutes to be watched to preserve his health, and he's coming into the season healthy which he hasn't done in 2 seasons.

    Averaging around 5 rebounds per game is pretty bad for a 7 footer, but it's understandable when you consider that he plays further away from the basket than almost any other 7 footer. He's not a good rebounder by any measure, but playing away from the basket also draws his man away from the basket which not only opens the lane but puts him out of position for a rebound. So while he might not rebound as much as he should for his size, his presence on the court also means whoever is defending him is also not rebounding as much as he should.

    If he has a healthy season there's no reason he shouldn't average at least 15/5/1 on at least .350/.450/.800. Combined with the offensive impact of Melo and JR that should be a sufficient contribution to the team. If he's not healthy or is unable to return to pre-injury form Metta/Kmart/Amare will take his minutes and replace his production. But I think it's just a little unfair to assume that a 28 year old that doesn't rely on athleticism will not return to form once he gets healthy. He's been relatively efficient throughout his career in seasons that weren't cut short by injury and a change of scenery offers him a chance at a fresh start.

    I'm betting a lot of people will be surprised by how well Bargnani plays. He's a very good fit with Melo and Chandler. Starting Melo and Bargs and bringing JR and Amare off the bench will maximize the effectiveness of all four players and will work wonders in New York (pending health of course).
    If that's the case he won't see much playing time. At this point in his career Metta is better suited for the 4 where he's closer to the basket and they Have Kmart and Amare (for now) from the get go, not to mention Melo is also capable of playing the 4. They don't have to play him if his presence on the court is a net negative.
    Of course they don't have to play him, but my point was IMO he doesn't provide much depth unless he's really gonna be the 4th PF off the bench.

    Kenyon Martin sucks now. Plain and simple. Never could score and now he's teetering on a Reggie Evans type of offensive skill set. Defensively he's okay and sets some decent screens but his okay defensive game doesn't outweigh is lacking offensive game.

    And just because he had a terrible shooting season last year doesn't mean that he's unable to shoot. He's only 28, he should be in his prime as a player. It's not like he's an old man, he was just affected by injuries the last two seasons. He's shown that he can be an efficient shooter and that he's capable of playing as a 2nd option to a scorer that likes to dominate the ball and attack the paint. When the raptors were around a .500 team with some hope for the future he was a key part of the team and played well with Bosh as a 2nd scoring option.
    The guy has had like 1 good shooting season in his career and he's been incredibly inefficient from the floor. His FT% shoots his eFG% up but looking at his FG% he's atrocious and quite honestly has only been knock down from 3s 1 season and that was a while back.

    In all honesty I don't think he's ever been good. Not because he was a #1 pick but because he can't do anything outside of spot up shoot. He can't drive, he can't pass, and he most def cannot play any form of defense whatsoever.

    Even when Bosh left and he became the first option he had a very solid year. His efficiency dropped a little due to more defensive attention, but overall he put up a very good season. The next year he only played 30 games due to injury which clearly affected his play on the court when he did play. Even then he managed to average 19 points a game, albeit on low efficiency. But taking a sample of 30 games isn't the same as analyzing an entire season. Had he not been injured his numbers would have regressed to the mean. When you only play 30 games in a season one bad streak of games can kill your efficiency numbers.
    I assume you mean his 2010-2011 season? I'm sorry I can't label that a very good season. His efficiency, rebounding, and WS dramatically dropped just by looking at his raw stats.

    Yes one bad streak of games can kill your efficiency numbers, but one good streak of games can also shoot them up.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2012/

    Looking at that, he didn't seem to hit any stretch of bad games in a row.

    He can score when he gets to take a ton of shots. Any NBA player with an offensive game can do that. It's all about whether or not he's able to produce at a high level when he doesn't have the freedom to jack up 18 shots per game.

    The next year was the same story with injury, although I could definitely see him laying it on thick because he was unhappy with being on a team that does things like hand out a 6 million dollar contract to Landry Fields. This year he's back on a winning team, he's a 2nd/3rd option again where he's been very efficient over his career, he's on a roster that allows for his minutes to be watched to preserve his health, and he's coming into the season healthy which he hasn't done in 2 seasons.
    Yes it's safe to assume he wasn't happy or healthy for a while in Toronto, but that doesn't mean we can just simply assume that because he's on a winning team again and healthy that he's gonna be great. For one, the guy is a joke on defense and he doesn't pass the ball. That will hurt the Knicks IMO dramatically because they didn't need more offensive ISO firepower. They need defense and he provides the polar opposite.

    Here's my issue with him on the Knicks. If his main job is to knock down open shots, why wouldn't you rather keep Novak? Of course Bargs is a much better player than Novak but if their roles on the team are going to be the same why let go of the guy who plays that role better?

    If he has a healthy season there's no reason he shouldn't average at least 15/5/1 on at least .350/.450/.800. Combined with the offensive impact of Melo and JR that should be a sufficient contribution to the team. If he's not healthy or is unable to return to pre-injury form Metta/Kmart/Amare will take his minutes and replace his production. But I think it's just a little unfair to assume that a 28 year old that doesn't rely on athleticism will not return to form once he gets healthy. He's been relatively efficient throughout his career in seasons that weren't cut short by injury and a change of scenery offers him a chance at a fresh start.
    I don't see a reason a change of scenery would be bad for him, but I cannot see him shooting 45% from 3, and quite honestly if that 35% is for his FG%, it's damn horrid. He's hit 40% from deep once in his career and it was 40.9% There's no reason to assume he'd improve on his best season from 3 by 5%.

    Sure he can return to his 19/5/1 stats on 43%/35%/80% but what good is that on the Knicks? That's my question, he's a waste of talent on that roster IMO. Novak did the job Bargs is asked to do much better did he not? Sure Novak can't pass or play D but it's not like Bargs would be much of an improvement in either area.

    I'm betting a lot of people will be surprised by how well Bargnani plays. He's a very good fit with Melo and Chandler. Starting Melo and Bargs and bringing JR and Amare off the bench will maximize the effectiveness of all four players and will work wonders in New York (pending health of course).
    That's possible. However just cause it's possible doesn't mean it's likely. Is he a very good fit with Melo and Chandler? Yeah sure, depending on who else they have. If they had defensive stalwarts coming off the bench for the 4 and 5 spot, then yeah sure he'd be great but they don't. Outside of Chandler, the Knicks have some of the worst defensive big men in the NBA in STAT and Bargs.

    Here's my other problem, yes JR and Melo COULD find Bargs open but based on their past season I can't see them willingly pass to him if they have one on one defensive coverage on them.

    JR Smith does not pass. That is a damn near fact that is just about indisputable. Even if you never watched him play, looking at his assists per game and AST% you can tell he doesn't pass.

    Melo is quite honestly just as bad, and has even less of an excuse considering how much attention he gets. With all the attention he gets he should be finding open teammates left and right but his AST% is in the territory of JR Smith.

    How many guys that demand as much attention as Melo has so much trouble finding open teammates? LeBron? No. Kobe? No. Wade? No. Durant? No. Westbrook? No. Rose? No. Harden? No. Curry? No.

  2. #692
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Moroni View Post
    funny how no one thought it was a bad idea when the Bulls were after Bargs
    i suppose it depends on who you ask. i think it makes more sense for them because they don't have a Carmelo/JR type combo of super high volume shooters so they don't need or benefit as much from solid role players in their starting 5 the way that i believe the Knicks do, but i still wouldn't call it a good idea for them either.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  3. #693
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    Quote Originally Posted by east fb knicks View Post
    I know you can read I didn't say he sucks I SAID WORST CASE SCENARIO IF HE SUCKS WE HAVE GUYS WHO CAN PLAY AHEAD OF HIM ITS PRETTY MUCH A LOW RISK HIGH REWARD SITUATION
    i know what you said. but if you are counting on 12-20 points, starting or not, that's still expecting plenty from him.

    what i don't understand, is how you can realistically expect to get that kind of output from a relatively inefficient volume scorer when you've got 2 guys who produce in a similar manner that are already integrated into that team and consistently throughout their careers combine for a good 40 shots a game.

    it sounds to me, and i realize that it's just an opinion, like a recipe for a lot of standing around "spacing the floor" on Bargnani's part. and if he's reduced to a spectator i think you will find, like we did, that his contributions in that area, combined with his extraordinary weakness on the boards and helping defensively, will far outweigh his benefit to your offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post
    If the Knicks didn't do anything except pick up Artest and Beno I would say they improved, but the negative value that Bargs brings makes them worse.


    Knicks will fall anywhere between the 3rd and the 6th seed and a lot of it will depend on whether Bargs plays or not.
    this is exactly my feeling as well. if woodson nails his *** to the bench early and often with the additions of Artest and Udrih i think they are a good bet to repeat last seasons success.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #695
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    Damn 47 pages. . .

    Anyway I think they improved slightly. A healthy Shump helps them. Honestly he might be their second best all around player depending on if Chandler can bounce back. I really like how Shump is coming along, especially if that jumper can become consistent like the end of last year.

    If Bargs is supposed to be this stretch 4 that spaces the floor for Melo and JR than I think they downgraded a little cause Novak is probably one of the best 3 pt shooters in the league. Bargs just is an average player at best even in his best seasons 08 and 09 he was average in all advanced categories. Just don't see him as some impact player.

    MWP is a 3 and D guy who should fit well in with Melo and JR. How much of an impact will he have remains to be seen but if he can still defend he'll be useful. Keyon is the key to all this. He's not much of a scorer anymore (never really was) other than the occasional putback now a days. He's a decent rebounder and post defender but with Amare playing limited minutes Kenyon is the only reliable big they have outside of Chandler (who needs to step up himself this year).

    It worked for them last year (regular season wise) but the East is even bigger this year and INDY exploited them in the playoffs due to their lack of size. Like their wing depth off the bench but they still leave alot to be desired up front.

    They can still win 50 games in the East but I say it pretty much all the Knicks threads their lack of size will keep them from winning it all as they will have to go against some physical frontlines in CHI, INDY, and BK.
    Last edited by Rockice_8; 08-12-2013 at 09:44 AM.

  6. #696
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisxsong View Post
    Of course they don't have to play him, but my point was IMO he doesn't provide much depth unless he's really gonna be the 4th PF off the bench.

    Kenyon Martin sucks now. Plain and simple. Never could score and now he's teetering on a Reggie Evans type of offensive skill set. Defensively he's okay and sets some decent screens but his okay defensive game doesn't outweigh is lacking offensive game.



    The guy has had like 1 good shooting season in his career and he's been incredibly inefficient from the floor. His FT% shoots his eFG% up but looking at his FG% he's atrocious and quite honestly has only been knock down from 3s 1 season and that was a while back.

    In all honesty I don't think he's ever been good. Not because he was a #1 pick but because he can't do anything outside of spot up shoot. He can't drive, he can't pass, and he most def cannot play any form of defense whatsoever.



    I assume you mean his 2010-2011 season? I'm sorry I can't label that a very good season. His efficiency, rebounding, and WS dramatically dropped just by looking at his raw stats.

    Yes one bad streak of games can kill your efficiency numbers, but one good streak of games can also shoot them up.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2012/

    Looking at that, he didn't seem to hit any stretch of bad games in a row.

    He can score when he gets to take a ton of shots. Any NBA player with an offensive game can do that. It's all about whether or not he's able to produce at a high level when he doesn't have the freedom to jack up 18 shots per game.



    Yes it's safe to assume he wasn't happy or healthy for a while in Toronto, but that doesn't mean we can just simply assume that because he's on a winning team again and healthy that he's gonna be great. For one, the guy is a joke on defense and he doesn't pass the ball. That will hurt the Knicks IMO dramatically because they didn't need more offensive ISO firepower. They need defense and he provides the polar opposite.

    Here's my issue with him on the Knicks. If his main job is to knock down open shots, why wouldn't you rather keep Novak? Of course Bargs is a much better player than Novak but if their roles on the team are going to be the same why let go of the guy who plays that role better?



    I don't see a reason a change of scenery would be bad for him, but I cannot see him shooting 45% from 3, and quite honestly if that 35% is for his FG%, it's damn horrid. He's hit 40% from deep once in his career and it was 40.9% There's no reason to assume he'd improve on his best season from 3 by 5%.

    Sure he can return to his 19/5/1 stats on 43%/35%/80% but what good is that on the Knicks? That's my question, he's a waste of talent on that roster IMO. Novak did the job Bargs is asked to do much better did he not? Sure Novak can't pass or play D but it's not like Bargs would be much of an improvement in either area.



    That's possible. However just cause it's possible doesn't mean it's likely. Is he a very good fit with Melo and Chandler? Yeah sure, depending on who else they have. If they had defensive stalwarts coming off the bench for the 4 and 5 spot, then yeah sure he'd be great but they don't. Outside of Chandler, the Knicks have some of the worst defensive big men in the NBA in STAT and Bargs.

    Here's my other problem, yes JR and Melo COULD find Bargs open but based on their past season I can't see them willingly pass to him if they have one on one defensive coverage on them.

    JR Smith does not pass. That is a damn near fact that is just about indisputable. Even if you never watched him play, looking at his assists per game and AST% you can tell he doesn't pass.

    Melo is quite honestly just as bad, and has even less of an excuse considering how much attention he gets. With all the attention he gets he should be finding open teammates left and right but his AST% is in the territory of JR Smith.

    How many guys that demand as much attention as Melo has so much trouble finding open teammates? LeBron? No. Kobe? No. Wade? No. Durant? No. Westbrook? No. Rose? No. Harden? No. Curry? No.
    wow, great post man. the fact that Melo and JR dominate the ball and don't pass seems to be overlooked by a lot of people here.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #697
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    Andrea Bargani and Ron Artest sucked last season. Why would they improve the Knicks?

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    As a Italian living in the Toronto area, bargagni has been my favourite player since he entered the league. That being said the biggest X-factor is not him, but Felton. Bargnani, Melo, and Smith.. 3 shooters that if Felton gets them the ball where they like it they will contend.

    Things will always work out in the end, but if you want them to turn out a certain way... You need to make it happen.

  9. #699
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    It seems like a lot of people just posts stuff just to piss off Knicks fans.
    There's no way some of you actually believe the stuff that you posts.

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    Not better or worse, pretty much the same. I like MWP pickup. Beno is upgrade over Kid who took the 2nd half of the season off. But I prefer Novak over Bargs I'm sorry. I'll take the guy that I know will knock 3's every night but can't play D over a guy that who knows what you get, stays hurt, and STILL can't play D.

    Plus Amare, Tyson, and K Mart ain't getting any younger and JR Swish is hurt.

    I will say the X factor a lot of people are sleeping on is Hardaway. If he can step right in and have a impact that changes things....
    Last edited by Tony_Starks; 08-12-2013 at 11:42 AM.

  11. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Starks View Post
    Not better or worse, pretty much the same. I like MWP pickup. Beno is upgrade over Kid who took the 2nd half of the season off. But I prefer Novak over Bargs I'm sorry. I'll take the guy that I know will knock 3's every night but can't play D over a guy that who knows what you get, stays hurt, and STILL can't play D.

    Plus Amare, Tyson, and K Mart ain't getting any younger and JR Swish is hurt.

    I will say the X factor a lot of people are sleeping on is Hardaway. If he can step right in and have a impact that changes things....
    I think they "slightly" improved but I do think the loss of Copeland is being undervalued by Knicks fans. Yeah he didn't play much early on but when the Knicks were hit by the injury bug he was carry the scoring load off the bench for them especially down the stretch. He shot terrific from deep and was aggressive attacking the rim.

    He was a very efficient bench player last year and was not replaced with anyone close to him offensively at least. All their other moves combined is why I gave them the slight improvement but I think Copeland was a pretty solid loss that is getting severely overlooked. He was an important bench piece from them that will be missed.

    MWP is his replacement and it's hard to call that a clear upgrade. They do different things Cope more offensively gifted and MWP known more for defending but not a clear upgrade. Unless you think they have enough scoring and could use more of a defender.
    Last edited by Rockice_8; 08-12-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  12. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nycbball08 View Post
    It seems like a lot of people just posts stuff just to piss off Knicks fans.
    There's no way some of you actually believe the stuff that you posts.
    that's a cop-out post. what is it specifically that you are disagreeing with?
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 08-12-2013 at 12:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rockice_8 View Post
    I think they "slightly" improved but I do think the loss of Copeland is being undervalued by Knicks fans. Yeah he didn't play much early on but when the Knicks were hit by the injury bug he was carry the scoring load off the bench for them especially down the stretch. He shot terrific from deep and was aggressive attacking the rim.

    He was a very efficient bench player last year and was not replaced with anyone close to him offensively at least. All their other moves combined is why I gave them the slight improvement but I think Copeland was a pretty solid loss that is getting severely overlooked. He was an important bench piece from them that will be missed.

    MWP is his replacement and it's hard to call that a clear upgrade. They do different things Cope more offensively gifted and MWP known more for defending but not a clear upgrade. Unless you think they have enough scoring and could use more of a defender.
    I wouldn't say Cope was aggressive attacking the rim, but he will be missed. I honestly think if Woodson played him more and earlier on in the Indiana series, we could have beaten them. I wanted the Knicks to re-sign him, but what can you do. But I'm definitely not undervaluing the loss of Cope.

    Welcome to the #tape

  14. #704
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nycbball08 View Post
    It seems like a lot of people just posts stuff just to piss off Knicks fans.
    There's no way some of you actually believe the stuff that you posts.
    Everything pisses off Knick fans....

  15. #705
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisxsong View Post
    Losing Kidd does not hurt. The guy was an absolute bum as a player, I think he didn't score a single point in the playoffs.

    They maximized their off-season potential? I have a problem with this statement. What was their potential? How did you know that's their potential? For example, with how deep the Nets were in salary cap wise, I bet you would have said there's no way in the world they add KG, PP, AK47, Terry, and Anderson while trading away maybe the worst contract in the NBA in Gerald Wallace, but it happened.

    End of story? Why? That's not the end of the story.

    They added yet another injury prone PF who doesn't play a lick of defense. In all honesty they probably have the worst two defensive PF in the NBA in STAT and Bargs and quite honestly neither are what they used to be based on the last few season whether it's due to diminished health or skill.

    They add Metta. IMHO Metta is trash. He's a big body but he can't do anything that well. He sucks at shooting, sucks at ball handling and quite honestly is an okay defender now, nowhere near what he used to be in Indiana/Sacramento/Houston.

    They then added Hardaway Jr who we know nothing about at the NBA level along with Barron who's a scrub and Jeremy Tyler who's another scrub.

    And no I don't hate the Knicks, I root for them when they aren't playing Brooklyn.
    Barron isn't on our team. How are you going to sit here and criticize a roster that you don't even know who is on it? And Tyler isn't a scrub either, he's a 22 year old former top prospect with loads of potential.

    Gerald Wallace might not have been the worst contract on the Nets, let alone the whole league.

    I don't care that you're a Nets fan, it's your general willingness to say things that aren't true to further your claims.
    Last edited by KnickaBocka.44; 08-12-2013 at 01:00 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post


    The division is going to be ran by the Sixers and Raptors in three years. Book it.

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