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  1. #1
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    Twisting Path Put Rockets in Position to Sign Howard

    The New York Times ran an interesting article on Houston's relatively new model to rebuilding. The Lakers could take a couple pointers, as it seems just being in LA isn't enough to make people stay.

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    This isn't as new of a concept their trying to make it out to be

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    This isn't as new of a concept their trying to make it out to be
    Care to name any other comparable examples?

    Not saying I disagree but the way the Rox went about their rebuild is pretty rare. You need to have geniuses upstairs to make it work
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Care to name any other comparable examples?

    Not saying I disagree but the way the Rox went about their rebuild is pretty rare. You need to have geniuses upstairs to make it work
    I guess the Knicks sort of tried that effort of getting young stars and draft picks, eventually trading them for superstars. Only problem is the Knicks went for the wrong players. They had the assets to put together a contender, if they wouldn't have put Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire together.

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    Disagree with the "Lakers need to take a different route" idea.

    Dwight isn't a normal superstar either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Care to name any other comparable examples?

    Not saying I disagree but the way the Rox went about their rebuild is pretty rare. You need to have geniuses upstairs to make it work
    lmao nice sig

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Care to name any other comparable examples?

    Not saying I disagree but the way the Rox went about their rebuild is pretty rare. You need to have geniuses upstairs to make it work
    They said only way to rebuild is draft, FA, or trade.

    The rockets acquired young players on rookie deals and picks via trade and draft. They traded those for another young but uprising star that's old team couldn't keep cause of cap issues. Then they signed Lin and asik. Then they signed a superstar in Howard. That's the old way but combines them. Not new others have tried and failed. someone cited the knicks as an exapmle. The difference is they did it with a little luck.

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    They key here is the entire process was based on "hope and hunches". Houston got lucky. Diwght had actually turned them down. It's like the guy who keeps trying to sleep with the same girl even though she's turned him down 5o times. One time she finally gives in... but she won't stick around for long unless she becoems impressed. Hence Dwight's opt out in two years.

    Had LAL been willing to work a sign-and-trade, Howard may very likely be in Brooklyn right now, or LAC. But LAL REFUSED to do a sign and trade, which meant that if Dwight didn't want to stay in LAL, he really only have one viable option: Houston. The other teams with the cap space simply were not in a position to contend.


    Keep in mind also that Dwight is essentially giving Houston a two-year rental... if he isn't happy (which is likely) he will leave.


    As for the 'clearing cap space' approach... this is what Miami did... AND Dallas... and those are the two potential outcomes... either turn a championship team into a lottery team, or a playoff team into a champion. Before that, the Lakers did this with the hope of signing Shaq... but clearing cap space doesn't always work, in fact, more often than not, it fails.

    Morey said t himself in the article: “I think obviously it requires preparation and good fortune,”

    Had OKC been willing to pay Harden more... Houston doesn't even have a SHOT at signing Howard... THEY GOT LUCKY.


    Had LAL been willing to do a sign-and-trade.... Houston' wouldn't have even been in the conversation to sign Dwight.


    The fact that two other teams took hard lines gave Houston a shot at signing him. Everything Houston did, Dallas did two... they just weren't lucky enough to pick up Harden... everything Houston did, Miami did two... they were just able to bring in three franchise players at once.


    The article also says the Rockets are contenders now.... I'd like to wait and see how they play first. I think there are some serious chemistry issues. People are celebrating the signing as if it is equal to winning a championship. It's not. They have secured nothing. The same happened last season with LAL picking up Nash and Dwight... they celebrated like it was a championship and they were lucky to make the playoffs.... now Dwight is gone and it is all for not.


    If Houston doesn't win, or get a first-round exit... the move will have not even been an upgrade. If Dwight leaves in two season, which is VERY likely, they would have done all this and set their teams' rebuilding back two years or more....


    Let's wait until we SEE SUCCESS before we start celebrating it. Signing Howard is a step in a long process. It' like a kid getting excited because he/she got accepted into university... but that doesn't mean anything until you graduate.... and when you graduate it doesn't mean anything until you get a job. The Rockets just got accepted by Dwight... now they have to graduate to the playoffs. Once they do that, they have to get a job (win a chip). Let's wait until that happens before we start praising a tactic that relied HEAVILY on luck and chance. Morey could be seen as the worst GM in the league before the end of the season who took bad gambles.


    Indy and SA and OKC have all done FAR better jobs of building through the draft and selected trades/free agency. In the past, only ONE free agent signing of a franchise player lead to champions.... Shaq. Miami repeated that, so now it's happened twice.


    There is also a line in the article that makes NO sense: "There is a simple premise at work here, one that many teams still fail to grasp: that mediocrity is a dead end, resulting in first-round playoff exits, low draft picks and clogged salary caps. Championships require superstars. Renewal requires suffering." Firstly... or course mediocrity is a dead end.... and you require superstars... but Houston has been mediocre for YEARS now and the entire article is saying the Houston approach works? In the last ten years the Rockets have only been below .500 once and have only won one playoff series... if that isn't mediocrity, I don't know what is.


    They then go onto say that Philly is doing what Houston did, but the article specifically says Houston's ownership wouldn't let Morey "bottom" out and then says that Philly is "awful enough to land a star next June." Then this ISN'T what Morey is doing... then he says Orlando and Cleveland are doing the same, but they aren't... they are tanking to get high picks!


    Getting draft picks and trying to clear cap space... how is this new? The Rockets/Morey weren't "Brilliant" or innovative... they were lucky... VERY lucky... now it is just a matter of can they continue to be lucky?


    In my book... Howard was a mistake.

    Then the writer goes on: "Better to have cheap assets than overpaid role players. Better to have cap flexibility than a shot at the eighth seed. Better to chase the next available superstar than to chase perpetual mediocrity." But this is the OPPOSITE of what Houston has done... they have been chasing that 8th seed EVERY season for the last ten years... and he's praising them, but at the same time saying... oh, never mind... somebody just rambled on and didn't think about what they were talking about long enough to realzie how many hole are in the article.


    Morey took a gamble... it paid off. Other teams have been able to be mediocre and get nice additions (Chi-town with Rose) while a HOST of other teams have clear cap space to sign big name free agents, but even when they do it has only twice in NBA history lead to a championship: Miami with LBJ and LAL with Shaq. And EVERY team tries to build through the draft.


    And there isn't three ways to build a team, there is one: Through the draft AND free agency AND trades. No team is built without using all three. To win though, you need two things, great scouts and great luck. Without both you will not win.


    Now... given that only two franchsies have been able to win with a focus on signing free agency, but teams who build through the draft primarily have won every other title... what does that say about Houston's approach and it's viability?
    What the eye doesn't see and the mind doesn't know, doesn't exist.
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    @JasonJohnHorn-

    "Had OKC been willing to pay Harden more... Houston doesn't even have a SHOT at signing Howard... THEY GOT LUCKY.
    Yeah Morey got lucky that 3 other GMs were idiots and not smart enough to trade for Harden when they got first shot at getting the guy. Did you want him to turn down a no-brainer of a deal. Also, even after these transactions Houston still remains as one of the few teams that will have the assets to at least be in the mix to deal for a key third piece whenever a player who fits such criteria becomes available.



    "Everything Houston did, Dallas did two... they just weren't lucky enough to pick up Harden"
    All Dallas did was clear up cap space. Morey's done several trades that set-up Houston to have assets and flexibilty to make such a deal, you still need to have the means to execute such a deal.

    "People are celebrating the signing as if it is equal to winning a championship. It's not"
    The people that are celebrating are doing it because they know Morey got the difficult part done already, which is to acquire two superstars. Those people are also not narrow-minded like many here and know Morey isn't done and it's a matter of time before he acquires the key third piece.


    "they have been chasing that 8th seed EVERY season for the last ten years"
    How old are you. Do you not remember some really tall asian dude and a guy named T-Mac.

    "Indy and SA and OKC have all done FAR better jobs of building through the draft and selected trades/free agency. In the past, only ONE free agent signing of a franchise player lead to champions....
    LMAO no ****, give Morey top of the lottery picks and im sure he can come up with a Durant, Westbrook or Duncan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.B View Post
    That kid is just a troll. He's just upset that the rockets have spent all this money trying to buy a championship and they're still not as good as the Mavs.
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    I'd rather have Kawhi Leonard....T Ross.... Aaron Afflalo..... Lance Stephenson....Bradley Beal....Wes Matthews....*




    All over Harden. Easy.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrueFan420 View Post
    They said only way to rebuild is draft, FA, or trade.

    The rockets acquired young players on rookie deals and picks via trade and draft. They traded those for another young but uprising star that's old team couldn't keep cause of cap issues. Then they signed Lin and asik. Then they signed a superstar in Howard. That's the old way but combines them. Not new others have tried and failed. someone cited the knicks as an exapmle. The difference is they did it with a little luck.
    The order seems wrong. They signed Lin and Asik BEFORE getting Harden. They also did alot to be in the position to be able to trade for Harden whilst still remaining competitive.

    Basically they weren't able to rebuild through the draft in typical fashion (by sucking and getting high picks) they had to find gems in the draft consistently (they did) in order to maintain this flexibility while still being competitive (per the owners request).

    The Knicks dont match that because everyone knew they were sucking for years in order to make a splash in FA. AKA another typical way to rebuild, especially for the biggest market in the league. They didn't do a very good job of it IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrblisterdundee View Post
    I guess the Knicks sort of tried that effort of getting young stars and draft picks, eventually trading them for superstars. Only problem is the Knicks went for the wrong players. They had the assets to put together a contender, if they wouldn't have put Carmelo Anthony and Amare Stoudemire together.
    Yea but that was more traditional, like they were sucking badly in the process and needed to clear out tons of cap to do so. Houston was always competitive and maintained cap flexibility in the process, thats really hard to do without getting moneyball players. And TBH, they didn't get the hometown/big market appeal that NY got with Melo.

    When your NY/LAL you're allowed that advantage tho. And I dont think NY targeted the wrong players, they did go after Bron and got spurned (thats the nature of the FA beast), wound up taking Amare instead but I would agree if you mean they should have just kept their money on that one.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  11. #11
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    I seem to see a lot of criticism of Morey and the rebuilding plan that settles on the idea that he got lucky because superstar X's circumstances were abnormal enough that Morey got lucky with that guy being available (i.e. Harden, Howard, etc.).

    The thing is, you're missing the point. Stop focusing on the individual circumstances of each player and why they might be lucky to have been obtained and focus on the point: there are always going to be superstars that are available eventually.

    Chris Paul, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, Steve Nash, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Deron Williams, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, Andrew Bynum were all at the time Superstars who were either traded or went to (in Wade's case nearly went to) another team in FA. Look at that list. And that's just off the top of my head going back the last 5-7 years or so...

    The idea that Morey "lucked out" because there happened to be 2 superstars he was able to get is misguided; there are many more superstars available than you realize...
    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    How unsurprising. Dude, give up trying to argue with valade. He cut you into little pieces, had you for breakfast, and shat you out.
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    Valade you have totally owned this thread. Well done
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    They key here is the entire process was based on "hope and hunches". Houston got lucky.
    THat gos into every rebuild. Its how you put yourself in that position whilst staying competitive thats the real key. And thats not easily accomplished. Morey has gotten value where others have overpaid (see what Minny spent on Chase Budinger for example).


    Hence Dwight's opt out in two years.
    Might want to recheck your facts. Then try this article again.

    Had LAL been willing to work a sign-and-trade, Howard may very likely be in Brooklyn right now, or LAC. But LAL REFUSED to do a sign and trade, which meant that if Dwight didn't want to stay in LAL, he really only have one viable option: Houston. The other teams with the cap space simply were not in a position to contend.
    Thats what made Houston so brilliant. They were the only viable option left, other teams lacked the foresight.


    Keep in mind also that Dwight is essentially giving Houston a two-year rental... if he isn't happy (which is likely) he will leave.
    LOL, you just got done telling us this lie, why persist?

    As for the 'clearing cap space' approach... this is what Miami did... AND Dallas... and those are the two potential outcomes... either turn a championship team into a lottery team, or a playoff team into a champion. Before that, the Lakers did this with the hope of signing Shaq... but clearing cap space doesn't always work, in fact, more often than not, it fails.
    Except those teams ALREADY had their superstar in place. Houston remained competitive without a star by drafting/trading intelligently and getting value where others couldn't. That way when a big fish became available, be it on the trade market or free agency, Houston was in the rare position to pounce.

    Morey said t himself in the article: “I think obviously it requires preparation and good fortune,”
    Thats why nothing you're saying makes sense. Nobody says its all skill, but your seriously downplaying the foresight and skill necessary to pull off such a heist. Sure some deals are luckier than others, just about every dynasty was created because of luck, so in terms of GM skill, the series of events that led to nabbing these players is higher imo.


    The fact that two other teams took hard lines gave Houston a shot at signing him. Everything Houston did, Dallas did two... they just weren't lucky enough to pick up Harden... everything Houston did, Miami did two... they were just able to bring in three franchise players at once.
    LOL how could Dallas have landed Harden? What exactly were they going to offer for his services? Miami already had Wade when they cleared out cap space, so half the job was done for them. Morey had to stay competitive while searching for his stars.

    The article also says the Rockets are contenders now.... I'd like to wait and see how they play first. I think there are some serious chemistry issues. People are celebrating the signing as if it is equal to winning a championship. It's not. They have secured nothing. The same happened last season with LAL picking up Nash and Dwight... they celebrated like it was a championship and they were lucky to make the playoffs.... now Dwight is gone and it is all for not.
    Nobody has done that. And yes, nothing is guaranteed but dont act like this wasn't an impressive coup, especially considering where Houston came from.

    If Houston doesn't win, or get a first-round exit... the move will have not even been an upgrade. If Dwight leaves in two season, which is VERY likely, they would have done all this and set their teams' rebuilding back two years or more....
    If by VERY likely you mean practically impossible, then yes.

    Let's wait until we SEE SUCCESS before we start celebrating it. Signing Howard is a step in a long process. It' like a kid getting excited because he/she got accepted into university... but that doesn't mean anything until you graduate.... and when you graduate it doesn't mean anything until you get a job. The Rockets just got accepted by Dwight... now they have to graduate to the playoffs. Once they do that, they have to get a job (win a chip). Let's wait until that happens before we start praising a tactic that relied HEAVILY on luck and chance. Morey could be seen as the worst GM in the league before the end of the season who took bad gambles.
    Luck? Not any more than any other good team.


    Indy and SA and OKC have all done FAR better jobs of building through the draft and selected trades/free agency.
    You're still not getting it. OKC/SAS rebuild through the draft by SUCKING BALLS. Houston was not afforded that luxury. Indiana is a better comp, they fleeced alot of teams to get where they are at. Their only miss was getting owned by San Antonio in the Kawhi Leonard deal but that was understandable at the time.

    There is also a line in the article that makes NO sense: "There is a simple premise at work here, one that many teams still fail to grasp: that mediocrity is a dead end, resulting in first-round playoff exits, low draft picks and clogged salary caps. Championships require superstars. Renewal requires suffering." Firstly... or course mediocrity is a dead end.... and you require superstars... but Houston has been mediocre for YEARS now and the entire article is saying the Houston approach works? In the last ten years the Rockets have only been below .500 once and have only won one playoff series... if that isn't mediocrity, I don't know what is
    .
    Your first great point.

    They then go onto say that Philly is doing what Houston did, but the article specifically says Houston's ownership wouldn't let Morey "bottom" out and then says that Philly is "awful enough to land a star next June." Then this ISN'T what Morey is doing... then he says Orlando and Cleveland are doing the same, but they aren't... they are tanking to get high picks!
    Another good point. Weird how you catch it here but not in the other comparisons you made.

    Getting draft picks and trying to clear cap space... how is this new? The Rockets/Morey weren't "Brilliant" or innovative... they were lucky... VERY lucky... now it is just a matter of can they continue to be lucky?
    Based on what? Nothing you've said in this thread has substantiated such a flawed opinion. And lying to make a point isn't doing you any favors either.


    In my book... Howard was a mistake.
    Sounds like a satirical book to me.
    Suggesting that signing the games best rebounder/defender and its best center is a mistake is illogical in my book.

    Then the writer goes on: "Better to have cheap assets than overpaid role players. Better to have cap flexibility than a shot at the eighth seed. Better to chase the next available superstar than to chase perpetual mediocrity." But this is the OPPOSITE of what Houston has done...
    Nope. Houston had cheap assets in place of overpaid role players. The only thing you're right about is that they retained CAP flexibility, that they did so while STILL having a shot at the 8th seed all these years is why they are rare.

    Morey took a gamble... it paid off. Other teams have been able to be mediocre and get nice additions (Chi-town with Rose)
    LMFAO

    You talk about luck for Houston and then find a way to give the example of one of the most luckiest lottery deliveries in NBA history? Whats next, the Lakers being able to draft Magic Johnson because of an outdated compensation rule? Completely irrelevant forms of rebuilding considering the luck involved DESTROYS Morey's model. Try again.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Care to name any other comparable examples?

    Not saying I disagree but the way the Rox went about their rebuild is pretty rare. You need to have geniuses upstairs to make it work
    glad we got one of those geniouses in Philly now!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2-ONE-5 View Post
    glad we got one of those geniouses in Philly now!
    Im loving what they have done. They are rebuilding the way Morey wishes he could have. I especially love the fact that they are saving buttload of cap space for when the trade season begins.

    Utah for example over played their hand. They paid an excess for middling picks and have made Philly all the more attractive as a trade facilitator.

    I know its hard for fans to get excited for a rebuild, but it just might be for the best. I would be much more frustrated if my team tried to win earlier than it should have, which is how I feel for the Pelicans.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

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