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  1. #1
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    Sick of Thunder, "Shouldn't have traded Harden talk!"

    I for one, am tired of hearing how the Thunder shouldn't have traded Harden for what Houston gave them.
    1). OKC has three major contracts in Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka making it impossible for the team to offer Harden what he would have been offered on the open market at the end of this season. He would have walked and the Thunder would have gotten nothing in return.

    2) Kevin Martin has a 12 million dollar expiring contract. 12 million brings some decent role players to add to the mix (their roster) next year or one or two talented need players.

    3). Draft picks will be big for the future needs of this Thunder team; greater bench or trade value. Jeremy Lamb project may develope into something.

    4). Commentators act like Westbrook injury could have been predicted. Even with Harden, I would like to see Vegas odds of Thunder/Heat finals minus Westbrook. Slim chance! Harden doesn't mature while Westbrook and his massive ego are together on the same team. With Houston he was able to spread his wings. Two play makers are all you need (Durant/Westbrook). K. Martin helps spread the court out while Durant and Westbrook drive and kick out. Heat won last year on packing the paint on Durant, Westbrook and yes ....Harden.

    Ibaka contract may have been OKC's big past mistake. Time will tell if they can find a rookie center to replace Perkins or maybe trade for help.

    Both teams benefited in the Harden trade.

    I know the Rockets will battle OKC next year without fear....and we wont fear the Heat either!! Would the Harden-less Rockets fear the 2013-14 Thunder if the trade was not made....maybe; but the 2013-14 Thunder would be Harden-less also (without K Marts expiring contract, Jeremy Lamb, and future picks).

    Agree or disagree?
    Last edited by Jatman20; 06-07-2013 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Shouldn't have traded Harden talk!

  2. #2
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    Agreed with a lot of what you were saying at the time of the trade, but disagree immensely now. Harden clearly has shown to be every bit as good as Westbrook, and will probably only get better with age. I also think he's the better fit next to Durant because of his ability to spread the floor with his shot. But even if they didn't pick Harden over Westbrook, they should have tried to go one more year with this core of guys. Windows in this league to win titles are only so large, and they sacrificed that when they didn't have to in order to get a mediocre package in return.

    Martin has been a joke in the playoffs, Lamb looks like he's got a long way to go to be an NBA player and that draft pick isn't likely to amount to anything in this pathetic draft. At the very least, they should have let the season play out and then pulled off a sign and trade to a team like Houston, and they still would have got the cap space and the draft pick. It's just a terrible deal, all around, and it's one that should haunt OKC for years if this core ends up not ever winning a title.


    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Lakers will make the playoffs this year and my bold prediction is they finish higher than the Rockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickdymez View Post
    And Lebron puts up great numbers, your right. Debate over. You win. Lebron is the greatest

  3. #3
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    They had his bird rights, they weren't restricted by the cap to resign him unless I'm mistaken..

    12 M for Kevin Martin this year is... ehhh.. it's not bad I guess, though RSPM really think he sucks (as in, much worse than Jeremy Lin. to give you an standard line.) though win share likes him a lot more..

    As for Harden vs Westbrook, ehhh, if you don't think Westbrooks' a PG, then there's no argument that Harden's one... at all. This year Harden's better, though it remains to be seen in the longer run what happens. they're roughly the same caliber player.

  4. #4
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    If I'm not mistaken, Ibakas contract becomes roughly 12 million next year. Martins contract will roll over into Ibakas. So let me correct that on my part.

    All I heard prior to this trade was that the Thunder couldn't pay Harden since they gave Ibaka his big pay day.
    So I'm not sure If Bird-rights apply here. Why would all the pundits say that? MBT who would Westbrook, Durant and Harden pass the ball out to, Sepalosha(sp?), Fisher (ok; but not consistent), Eric Maynor ( traded at deadline)? I don't see Durant, Westbrook or Harden as catch and release shooters. They all need the ball in their hands. Sometimes it can be overkill. We found that out with Harden/Lin. Lin has had to adapt to the ball in Hardens hand a majority of the time. Same thing with Westbrook having the ball in his hands a majority of the time. Durant can work off of that because he is that good. Hardens growth was being stunted by Westbrooks play. Kevin Martin came through vs Houston in game 6. His career 3 point shooting went up about 10 percentage points for most of the season because of Durant and Westbrook; while they added about 2 assist per game to their averages this year because of Martin (heard Hubbie Brookes mention that in a game earlier in the year). Wasn't OKC up there with us for points per game during the season. Did that increase/decrease this year? I know I'm asking a question I don't know the answer to (big mistake lawyers know not to make)?

    I guess it is a short-term gain vs long-term gain thing. I didn't see them winning a championship with the team they had and no outside shooting so the short-term gain was minimal. The Heat added Ray Allen for the same purpose prior to this trade, because they felt Shane B wasn't enough. I guess we will never know since Westbrook got hurt.

    Good debate I will stay out of it from this point on.
    Last edited by Jatman20; 05-14-2013 at 08:27 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatman20 View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, Ibakas contract becomes roughly 12 million next year. Martins contract will roll over into Ibakas. So let me correct that on my part.
    Sort of, but you're forgetting that Ibaka made about $2.5 million this year, so it's more like they've had $10 million in salary next season, rather than coming out dead even between Martin and Ibaka.

    All I heard prior to this trade was that the Thunder couldn't pay Harden since they gave Ibaka his big pay day.
    That's inaccurate. They could have given the guy a max contract if they wanted to. The problem is the luxury tax, which no small market team will want to pay to keep that many stars around. With all four players, the taxes would have been monumental. And, yes, because they had Harden's Bird Rights, they could have re-signed him to a five-year, max deal if they wanted. They chose to trade him to Houston, who then inherited those Bird Rights.

    MBT who would Westbrook, Durant and Harden pass the ball out to, Sepalosha(sp?), Fisher (ok; but not consistent), Eric Maynor ( traded at deadline)? I don't see Durant, Westbrook or Harden as catch and release shooters. They all need the ball in their hands.
    I'm going to agree to disagree with you here. Durant and Harden both are/were pretty solid catch and shoot perimeter guys in that offense. They had to be with as many star perimeter players they had. Yes, both guys excel with the ball in their hands, but you're acting like they're completely inept catching and hitting wide open 3-pointers, which isn't the case. Also, Sefolosha excels in that regard and Ibaka has developed into a very good mid-range shooter.

    Sometimes it can be overkill. We found that out with Harden/Lin. Lin has had to adapt to the ball in Hardens hand a majority of the time. Same thing with Westbrook having the ball in his hands a majority of the time. Durant can work off of that because he is that good. Hardens growth was being stunted by Westbrooks play.
    I'm not saying that Harden wasn't stunted by playing with those guys. It's absolutely true. But this thread isn't talking about what's best for Harden, its talking about what's best for the Thunder.

    Kevin Martin came through vs Houston in game 6. His career 3 point shooting went up about 10 percentage points for most of the season because of Durant and Westbrook; while they added about 2 assist per game to their averages this year because of Martin (heard Hubbie Brookes mention that in a game earlier in the year).
    Two things are blatantly wrong with this paragraph. First, OKC's assist totals might have gone up, but I fail to see how that is a direct result of the Harden for Martin swap. In fact, Harden averaged 3.7 APG last season compared to 1.4 for Martin this year. The assists went up as a result of Westbrook's improvement as a play maker and distributor.

    Also, you're making Martin come off as some sort of playoff stud, when things couldn't be further from the truth. Sure, he was good in Game 6, but how horrible was he in Game 5 and prior to that? Also, look at his numbers this postseason: 37.4 FG%; 14.4 PPG on 12.3 FGA; 51.4 TS%; 14.4 PER; .084 WS/48. Those are all well below average numbers in terms of efficiency. Not only has he not been good, but he's a big reason why they're about to get eliminated by the Grizzlies.

    I guess it is a short-term gain vs long-term gain thing. I didn't see them winning a championship with the team they had and no outside shooting so the short-term gain was minimal. The Heat added Ray Allen for the same purpose prior to this trade, because they felt Shane B wasn't enough. I guess we will never know since Westbrook got hurt.
    Dude, I don't understand what points you're trying to make at all. Couldn't win a championship? They had a 1-0 lead on Miami in the Finals last year after facing a brutal playoff run in the West. It's not like they were far off, and those young guys were only going to get better this season (and did). If anyone could have beaten the Heat this season, it was OKC, and they made themselves worse to avoid a conflict a year away.

    Also, you're completely wrong on 3-point shooting. They were 11th in the league in 3PT% and 9th in 3PM last season. To say they had no 3-point shooting makes me wonder how many Thunder games you watched last year. Durant, Harden and Sefolosha all shot at least 38% while Cook and Maynor were both in that 35% range. They had shooters. And if that was their biggest concern, getting rid of Harden doesn't fix that problem. They could have easily gone out and gotten a cheap perimeter shooter if they needed one.

    You make it sound like they got rid of Harden to get better when they couldn't be further from the truth. They got rid of Harden, because they knew they couldn't afford his contract and they didn't want to take a chance at winning a title just in case he left and they ended up with nothing to show for it. The funny thing is that they traded him, they aren't coming close to a title and they probably will still end up with nothing to show for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Lakers will make the playoffs this year and my bold prediction is they finish higher than the Rockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickdymez View Post
    And Lebron puts up great numbers, your right. Debate over. You win. Lebron is the greatest

  6. #6
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    I hope they downplay the draft sooooo badly that we steal Victor Oladipo and have the point guard of the future locked down.

  7. #7
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    Hey if we manage to sign Dwight I will gladly give them more cap flexibility by trading Asik and one of our young 4's in exchange for Ibaka... I mean I do not see his contract as a mistake personally.

    Dwight and Ibaka defending the paint...

  8. #8
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    If they extended Harden, they'll be over the Tax next season yes, but they also still have their Amnesty available, which they totally need and should use on Perkins who makes nearly 9M next year. with the way he's playing, they should just start Collison, hell, if they really need Size that much they might as well start Thabeet, since both are about as useless on offense anyway. (Thabeet's per 36 min this year is actually better than Perkins, that should sum up how bad Perkin is.)

    They're 11th in attendance, so that they couldn't even go over the Tax by a little seems dubious to me at best.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakeyestx View Post
    I hope they downplay the draft sooooo badly that we steal Victor Oladipo and have the point guard of the future locked down.
    No way does Oladipo slip that far (he's a top 10 lock). But one guy I'd watch in the Rockets range is Myck Kabongo from Texas. I'm obviously a little biased because I'm a Longhorn, but that kid has crazy potential that he never got to reach at UT because of that terrible NCAA ruling which kept him out of most of this last season. But he came back and killed it in the few games he played, and he would have been a college superstar if he had had a full sophomore season to develop. He's insanely skilled as a playmaker, has good range on his jumper and gives a damn on defense.


    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Lakers will make the playoffs this year and my bold prediction is they finish higher than the Rockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickdymez View Post
    And Lebron puts up great numbers, your right. Debate over. You win. Lebron is the greatest

  10. #10
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    MBT, I'm sure i heard many reports prior to the trade that the Thunder couldn't afford Harden because of Ibakas extension. They tried negotiating with Harden. They knew they couldn't meet his asking price.
    I'm sure it's a small market deal. I know Ibaka is making just over 2 mil this year with their payroll around 67 mil this year. Next year Martin comes off the books and Ibaka hits them at just over 12 mil.( almost a wash). So next year they are set to start the season at 68 million. Harden would put this small market team at roughly 83 million. Not a cap hit???? but maybe a steep price for them.

    Keep in mind either the Thunder or Houston had to sign him to an extension prior to opening night or he would have been a free agent at seasons end (league rule). No negotiations during this 1212-13 season. I remember we had only a few days to sign him to an extension.

    They probably should have amnestied Perkins at 7.8 mil which raises two more years to over 9 mil. He averaged 6 Rebs and about 4 points this past regular season. Better off with JJ Hickson!!

    Hindsight is always 20/20
    Last edited by Jatman20; 05-15-2013 at 08:22 AM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatman20 View Post
    MBT, I'm sure i heard many reports prior to the trade that the Thunder couldn't afford Harden because of Ibakas extension. They tried negotiating with Harden. They knew they couldn't meet his asking price. I'm sure it's a small market deal. I know Ibaka is making just over 2 mil this year with their payroll around 67 mil this year. Next year Martin comes off the books and Ibaka hits them at just over 12 mil.( almost a wash). So next year they are set to start the season at 68 million. Harden would put this small market team at roughly 83 million. Not a cap hit???? but maybe a steep price for them.
    This is exactly my point, though. It's not that they "couldn't" sign Harden, it's that they "chose" not to sign Harden because they pulled a typical cheap small market team move. But at the very least, they should have let him play through this season without question. They still could have got a draft pick or two in a sign and trade for him.

    They probably should have amnestied Perkins at 7.8 mil which raises two more years to over 9 mil. He averaged 6 Rebs and about 4 points this past regular season. Better off with JJ Hickson!!
    Exactly. Right now, this team is scheduled to have about $64.8 million in contracts, but if you take out Perkins' constract, they're under $56 million. Giving Harden a huge deal would likely have pushed them over the luxury tax level ($70.3 million), but only barely. They could have gone small ball with Ibaka at center or added a cheap veteran option, but the luxury tax payment would not have been as bad as some teams have had to pay in the past. It's simply a small market team taking the cheap way out.

    Hindsight is always 20/20
    It is, but I don't think this is a hindsight issue. These GMs and owners have to know better when they're trying to build for the future of their franchise and they're paying athletes millions of dollars. If you have a star and you let that guy go, you better be damn sure it was the right move, because it is not easy to replace a star in this league after they're gone. It wasn't, and it's something that could potentially haunt this franchise for a decade or longer.


    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Lakers will make the playoffs this year and my bold prediction is they finish higher than the Rockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickdymez View Post
    And Lebron puts up great numbers, your right. Debate over. You win. Lebron is the greatest

  12. #12
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    In response to MBT...I agree....they chose to get something and not chance Harden walking and getting nothing in return.

    Simple stats I just looked up: (82 games.com) 2011-12 unit of Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Perkins/HARDEN- win % of 50.9............2012-13 unit of Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Perkins/MARTIN- win % of 54.0 (Grant it was a strike shortened season 2011-12).......Scoring points per game 2011-12 -- 103.1. 2012-13 --105.7 number 1 seed going into the playoffs in the Western Conference (more difficult conference) Without Harden. Westbrook hadn't missed a game due to injury...maybe one game prior to this one. Dwayne Wade had greater odds of missing the finals than Westbrook did.

    I just think the media is trying to portray the Rockets as crooks and that the league shouldn't do business with Morey; and if they do then they will repeat the "MISTAKE" on air over and over again!! Like beating a dead horse over and over again. They need to just Let It Go!!

    And note this: 2011-12 points per game in playoffs- 101.3 (with Harden and Westbrook); 2012-13 points per game in playoffs 99.9 (WITHOUT Harden and most games without Westbrook). Small decrease there.
    Last edited by Jatman20; 05-15-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  13. #13
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    I'm failing to see the point of the thread.... Are you implying Harden isn't that good?

    Big THX to MJ's Bulls and pheagles10 on the sig help!
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatman20 View Post
    Simple stats I just looked up: (82 games.com) 2011-12 unit of Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Perkins/HARDEN- win % of 50.9............2012-13 unit of Westbrook/Durant/Ibaka/Perkins/MARTIN- win % of 54.0 (Grant it was a strike shortened season 2011-12).......Scoring points per game 2011-12 -- 103.1. 2012-13 --105.7 number 1 seed going into the playoffs in the Western Conference (more difficult conference) Without Harden. Westbrook hadn't missed a game due to injury...maybe one game prior to this one. Dwayne Wade had greater odds of missing the finals than Westbrook did.
    But you're not getting it. You're making it seem as if this team was better off somehow without Harden, but what those numbers aren't taking into consideration are the huge improvements Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka made this season. That's a young team, and they might actually be slightly better than last season because of how much they've developed this year. BUT, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be that much better with a developing James Harden, as well. Look at the leap Harden made last year from his previous year, and you'll see he was bound to make another stride this season no matter what team he was on.

    I just think the media is trying to portray the Rockets as crooks and that the league shouldn't do business with Morey; and if they do then they will repeat the "MISTAKE" on air over and over again!! Like beating a dead horse over and over again. They need to just Let It Go!!
    I don't think Morey is a "crook." He's just an excellent GM who took advantage of a concerned small market team with too many budding superstars.

    And note this: 2011-12 points per game in playoffs- 101.3 (with Harden and Westbrook); 2012-13 points per game in playoffs 99.9 (WITHOUT Harden and most games without Westbrook). Small decrease there.
    To reiterate my previous point....
    Durant's '12 PER & WS/48: 26.2, .230
    Durant's '13 PER & WS/48: 28.3, .291

    Westbrook's '12 PER & WS/48: 22.9, .163
    Westbrook's '13 PER & WS/48: 23.9, .195

    Ibaka's '12 PER & WS/48: 19.0, .167
    Ibaka's '13 PER & WS/48: 19.4, .181

    So, clearly, any improvement by this team this season has a lot less to do with Harden's exit and a lot more to do with the development of its young core. But as I said before, this team would have been much better with James Harden than Kevin Martin this season. Period.


    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Lakers will make the playoffs this year and my bold prediction is they finish higher than the Rockets.
    Quote Originally Posted by nickdymez View Post
    And Lebron puts up great numbers, your right. Debate over. You win. Lebron is the greatest

  15. #15
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    No I like Harden for the Rockets....not for the Thunder. If Westbrook needs the ball 32-35 mins to be effective ( get a flow for the game and Harden handles the ball 32-35 mins a game to get a flow for the game) then it doesn't work so good in a 48 minute game. Not enough basketball for the two of them. IMO Westbrook is a ball hog and Harden is different in that he creates for himself but is a willing passer at the same time. Parsons spent last summer with a shooting coach and vastly improved his outside shooting. Lin needs to spend all summer with that same shooting coach to be a catch and release shooter. He will compliment Harden better that way. Harden can add two assists per game at least next year.

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