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  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapjuicer06 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    I think many of you guys aren't thinking about what types of jobs are minimum wage (mind you: not WHO holds them but WHAT they are).

    You're not going to see outsourcing due to this. Calm your ****ing horses.
    I know people who work in addidas shops, nike shops and stuff like that, making clothing. You start out at minimum wage in those places. If they are going to raise the minimum wage for those jobs, they will be losing money. The employeers are going to take notice if they have 20 people working on minimum wage and then it gets raised up, guess what? You now also have to raise the people who got that raise to 8 dollars after being there for a certain amount of time as well. Then you have the people making 9 dollars an hour who have been there for awhile making the same as someone who is just getting hired...gotta give them a raise. And it keeps going from there.

    Call centers...there is one thats here in Cedar Rapids called Ruffalo Cody. There are about 30? Probably more employees here making minimum wage. So all 30 of these people are going to to get a $1.75 raise?

    I had a friend that used to work there 20 hours a week during college.

    7.25 = 7540 a year for one person
    for 30 people? 226,200

    9.00 = 9,360
    for 30 people? 280,800

    That's a lot. And raises there after you are trained/probation period (with a ridiculously high turnover rate) you go up .25 cents to an amazing 7.50. That's a huge problem for call centers like this. There are a ton of call centers in the Mid-West that will be affected by this alone. I mean thats a big raise in money there, around $50,000 a year...There work isn't going to change, the business isn't going to "get more business" and will go down, like a LOT of call centers will. That KILLS the Mid-West and the unemployment rate will go up here, big time
    Exactly! And it used to be that starting a biz in America was easy, taxes were low, regs were low and big brother wasn't breathing down your back.

    Raising min wages, new regulations, unemployment, etc. are just ensuring that big businesses will take their companies else where.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    The evidence I have seen, and posted in this thread, indicates this isn't true. If you want to provide some evidence to back up this assertion, have at it.
    The logic behind it is sound. Sorry I can't run a test on the entire country in a lab.

    When you raise the cost of production by artificially increasing wages it by definition MUST cost more to make that product or provide that service (all else equal). When you raise the costs

    As to the poor losing jobs its a very simple concept as well. If you have a worker that HAS to get paid more than their productivity it is no longer profitable to employ them.

    On the other side of the scenario you are making it harder to have a successful business by raising their costs, and decreasing the incentive to have a business.
    Restaurants and stores suddenly become much less profitable if you jack up minimum wage too high.


    No it doesn't. That isn't really even the goal. The goal is to ensure that a person who works full time doesn't live in poverty. The rest of the first world can apparently afford to do this, but the US cannot?
    So you agree it cannot create more wealth. That is good.
    If you don't want people to love in poverty silly mandates are not the answer.
    You need to increase productivity. As was already discussed you are costing already poor people jobs, and if they don't have one they get put on welfare and are an even bigger drag on the productive forces.


    The last time inflation was a legitimate economic problem in this country was about 1979. If you fear inflation you are reading too much propaganda from those who hold loans, i.e. who are already wealthy and would lose a tiny fraction of future income to inflation.
    The cost of living is completely stagnant the past several years amiright?
    The value of the dollar has lost like 95+% of its value over the last how many years since the fed came into existence.

    and counterfeiting money to pay for senseless government wars and inefficient programs and to hand out to their banker friends is OK too.

    But sure inflation isn't a problem at all


    You apparently have little grasp of either history or international affairs. The employment relationship is inherently assymetrical -- the employer holds the power. In libertarian/republican fantasy land, we are all equally informed, and equally empowered to negotiate prices, wages etc. Reality, as shown by both our own history before minimum wage (indentured servitude anyone?) and examination of other countries without minimum wage show your assertions above to be largely divorced from reality. The scheme you are suggesting leads to even more extreme income in equality than we already face, punishing workers while empowering the already powerful. We are close enough to a banana republic as it stands, and certainly need to move away from that end of the spectrum rather than towards it.
    Right allowing people to work for a price THEY agree to is somehow punishing workers.. and i'm living in fantasy land? ROFL.

    Instead of people being able to open up their own shop to provide more jobs you want to make it harder to do so.

    Instead of having a job at low pay they can have no job.
    This is like when we try to export child labor bans to poor countries. Supposedly for their own good. Instead of being able to work to get their family by, you greatly worsen the situation by causing an even worse problem (starvation) by physically preventing them from working AND hurting production. There simply isn't enough wealth there to have everyone live the good life. A mandate like minimum wage laws or child labor laws will not change that.

    Minimum wage laws do NOT provide jobs, they only outlaw them.
    Last edited by cambovenzi; 02-14-2013 at 02:25 PM.

  3. #138
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    Bye Bye 99Cent Menu

  4. #139
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    Hear that??

    It's more jobs leaving the country!
    Perfection.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Labgrownmangoat View Post
    Do you have any evidence at all that this is happening? That it's common? Do you have any reason to think that your "solution" would help the working poor in any way? You realize that's the goal of raising the minimum wage, right?
    Yes, its common. Look around. A friends neighbor, was in his late 20's, NEVER had a job in his life. He was on one of the government aid programs his whole life. I don't want to be paying for his lazy ***.

    I have family on it and still don't care. Get rid of it. Lowering taxes would be the same as raising minimum wage.


  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsTheYear View Post
    Yes, its common. Look around. A friends neighbor, was in his late 20's, NEVER had a job in his life. He was on one of the government aid programs his whole life. I don't want to be paying for his lazy ***.

    I have family on it and still don't care. Get rid of it. Lowering taxes would be the same as raising minimum wage.
    In other words you have unverifiable anecdotes and no real evidence? Got it. That is exactly what I imagined you were basing your opinion upon.
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcityroller View Post
    I believe 9 states have a minimum wage lower than the supposed federal minimum wage.
    my guesses are alabama, arkansas, louisiana, tenessee, kentucky, missouri, am I in the ballpark? lol
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  8. #143
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    I would suggest to anyone that is interested in this topic, take a look at a study here.

    Quote Originally Posted by cambovenzi View Post
    The logic behind it is sound. Sorry I can't run a test on the entire country in a lab.

    When you raise the cost of production by artificially increasing wages it by definition MUST cost more to make that product or provide that service (all else equal). When you raise the costs

    As to the poor losing jobs its a very simple concept as well. If you have a worker that HAS to get paid more than their productivity it is no longer profitable to employ them.

    On the other side of the scenario you are making it harder to have a successful business by raising their costs, and decreasing the incentive to have a business.
    Restaurants and stores suddenly become much less profitable if you jack up minimum wage too high.
    Translation: I have no evidence that what i am saying is true. I have no evidence that the study you posted in the thread (above) is false. But I assume on the basis of my own thinking you and that study are wrong.

    Correct me if any of that is inaccurate.

    I suggest researching the facts. Start with the National Employment Law Project and their studies if you don't want to do them yourself. Or just try opening the link I provided above. This suggestion does assume you are interested in basing your opinions on fact rather than speculation, which I admit appears to be a questionable assumption.

    So you agree it cannot create more wealth. That is good.
    If you don't want people to love in poverty silly mandates are not the answer.
    You need to increase productivity. As was already discussed you are costing already poor people jobs, and if they don't have one they get put on welfare and are an even bigger drag on the productive forces.
    Logic would tend to agree with you, as long as we have no other information. Sadly for your argument, the facts matter. Productivity has increased 5-fold in the US since the 70's, while wages have remained flat, and the minimum wage (adjusted for inflation) has decreased. So what happened to the fruits of those productivity gains? They went to owners, investors, and bankers. How can we make sure the fruits of productivity gains are equitably distributed instead of going to the top only? By doing things like raising the minimum wage. How do you think our historical level of income inequality came about?

    The cost of living is completely stagnant the past several years amiright?
    The value of the dollar has lost like 95+% of its value over the last how many years since the fed came into existence.

    and counterfeiting money to pay for senseless government wars and inefficient programs and to hand out to their banker friends is OK too.

    But sure inflation isn't a problem at all
    t

    Inflation exists. We agree on that. It always has and it always will. The question is whether it's at a level that is a problem. It is not a problem now, and hasn't been for decades.

    Right allowing people to work for a price THEY agree to is somehow punishing workers.. and i'm living in fantasy land? ROFL.
    People will also agree to enslave themselves if they are allowed to do so (indentured servitude). Should we allow that too? What desperate, uninformed workers are willing to do is not the point. What we as a society are willing to allow is the point. Even the most extreme right-wingers no longer support human slavery, right? Does this not mean that all of us, including you, are willing to regulate the employer/employee relationship?

    Instead of people being able to open up their own shop to provide more jobs you want to make it harder to do so.

    Instead of having a job at low pay they can have no job.
    This is a false dichotomy. Another solution is to provide employers an even playing field by ensuring that each of them pays a certain minimum wage. Which we do. You're welcome.

    If every person who wants to "open their own shop" faces the same requirements, along with everyone actually running "their own shop", then what is the problem?

    This is like when we try to export child labor bans to poor countries. Supposedly for their own good. Instead of being able to work to get their family by, you greatly worsen the situation by causing an even worse problem (starvation) by physically preventing them from working AND hurting production. There simply isn't enough wealth there to have everyone live the good life. A mandate like minimum wage laws or child labor laws will not change that.
    You are against child labor laws?!? This provides a lot more perspective on where you are coming from. Should the employer/employee relationship be regulated in any way by any level of government?

    Minimum wage laws do NOT provide jobs, they only outlaw them.
    This statement is half false. Point out to me the section of any minimum wage law that outlaws employment.

    Minimum wage laws do not provide jobs. ON that much we agree. However, they were never intended to, so your "point" here really isn't.

    If you mean they outlaw victimizing employees beyond a certain level, then you're close to on track.
    Last edited by Labgrownmangoat; 02-14-2013 at 05:46 PM.
    “A riot,” said Martin Luther King, “is the language of the unheard.”

  9. #144
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    So unless I can adjust the minimum wage myself and have scientific studies on a very macro scale than nothing else matters? Logic and economics are out the window?

    Your argument is a very weak appeal to emotion that isn't sound policy.
    You can pretend its good for everyone but it clearly isn't.
    You pretend it doesn't outlaw some jobs when by definition it literally does prevent people from working below the minimum wage.

    You try to pose as a humanitarian when your policies do more harm than good.
    Starving people do death in other countries when trying to take a moral high-ground of 'children shouldn't have to work'

    Should there be some regulation? Yes. Against fraud and various other things. But it should be minimal and not insanely invasive and intrusive. Physically banning people from working at 8.5/hour seems pretty damn invasive to me.

  10. #145
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    Some light suggested reading:
    People in the market can compete on many different margins. They can compete by offering higher productivity, or they can compete by offering better products. Perhaps most importantly, people can compete by offering lower prices. In the case of laborers, this often means offering their services at a lower wage.

    Anyone who has taken an introductory economics course is familiar with the idea that a minimum wage leads to a reduction in the demand for labor and an increase in the supply of labor in the relevant market — usually, the market for low-skill workers. The minimum wage removes the ability of some workers to compete by accepting lower wages and shuts them out of the labor force. As a result, it reduces job opportunities for these workers. A minimum wage breaks the hinges on the door of opportunity.

    However, there are additional, hidden costs of these interventions, which are more difficult to detect but perhaps more insidious. For example, one effect of a minimum wage is to reduce the availability of on-the-job training, since more resources are required simply to hire and retain a workforce. And further interventions in the labor market (for example, safety regulations and payroll taxes) make it still more costly to employ labor. These burdens together reduce a firm's willingness to hire laborers and — in the long run — must reduce the number of opportunities for those laborers to acquire valuable job skills. Far from increasing opportunities for the working poor, a minimum wage actually restricts their mobility.

    In an attempt to compensate for the lack of skills and opportunities among the low-skilled, governments have created a lot of job training programs. However, whatever their intentions, these training programs circumvent the market processes that match skills with jobs. Every person has a unique set of skills, competencies, strengths, and weaknesses that will only be revealed through their activity in the market. Job training and skills assessments may be able to match people with suitable employment to some degree, but the search mechanism inherent in the labor market is a low-cost way of accomplishing the same result more efficiently.

    Firms faced with minimum wage laws often substitute skilled for unskilled labor. In a report for the Show-Me Institute, labor economist David Neumark offers an illustrative example: Suppose that a job can be done by either three unskilled workers or two skilled workers. If the unskilled wage is $5 per hour and the skilled wage is $8 per hour, the firm will use unskilled labor and produce the output at a cost of $15. However, if we impose a minimum wage to $6 per hour, the firm will instead use two skilled workers and produce for $16 as opposed to the $18 cost of using unskilled workers. In the "official data" this shows up as a small job loss — in this case, only one job — but we see an increase in average wages to eight dollars per hour in spite of the fact that the least skilled workers are now unemployed.

    There is also a hidden social cost in minimum wage policies. Debates over a minimum wage erode social fabric by placing workers and their employers in opposition to one another. While there have been many legitimate reasons for some tension to exist between firms and workers, minimum wage policies set them in unnecessary opposition to one another over employment contracts, which are by nature cooperative and mutually beneficial. Encouraging the view that employment is a raw deal has created needless acrimony. At the margin, this intimidates people and discourages some from becoming employers themselves.

    The prohibition of certain kinds of labor contracts also discriminates against — paradoxically — the law-abiding. Just as legal prohibitions on the use and sale of drugs have lured the lawless into the drug trade, prohibitions on certain forms of labor ensure that only those lacking in scruples will be left on the demand side of the market for, say, child labor and the like.

    If restrictions, regulations, and price floors create massive deadweight losses, they also create incentives for firms and individuals to evade those restrictions, regulations, and price floors. Those with a comparative advantage in evading (or violating) the law will be most successful; thus, labor market regulation gives implicit encouragement and support to the unscrupulous. Restriction and regulation reduces the relative price of dishonesty, which means we can expect greater levels of it in the marketplace.

    Advocates of higher minimum wages are often motivated by the purest of concerns for the poor. However, the minimum wage has been described as a "maximum folly" by many economists for many years because it hurts precisely the people who most desperately need help. Self-styled friends of the poor are unrelenting in their advocacy of a higher minimum wage, but with friends like these, the poor do not need enemies.
    -Art Carden https://mises.org/daily/3478

  11. #146
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    federal minimum wage to be raised to $9.00/hour?

    Haha! Awesome. You think that inflation hasn't been a problem in a long time?? No wonder you feel the way you do. Wake up man and realize that inflation is probably around 10% or higher right now. The govt controls the numbers by not including food and energy, the two highest increases we see!

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raidaz4Life View Post
    I can state for a fact that I have worked for both corporate Walmart and a privately owned Arby's for about 2 years each and both regularly ran under the minimum required to run their store to save money. The Arby's didn't even properly train people as a way to skip giving people hours that were not going to be producing right out the gate. At Walmart I have been asked to do the work of two people on a daily basis for about 8 months now because they did not want to have to hire two more people after the last two people quit.

    Now, the Arby's lucked out and hit a couple of decent employees that were capable of carrying a store with extremely strong work ethics, but Walmart routinely just runs an awful customer experience with horribly stocked areas, tasks never being completed in a timely manner, and lines 5 to 6 customers. People of course complain but don't do anything about it because they like Walmart for the cheap prices.

    I'm not saying that is an accurate representation of the entire job pool, but I would imagine there are quite a few businesses that slide by on labor costs... and I would imagine that the majority of them are minimum wage jobs.

    Also keep in mind its not just the minimum wage that goes up, everyone with a non salary job will be forced into a raise simply to amend the pay discrepancy. That could cost your run of the mill privately owned business quite a bit of money. I would also expect that it would bump the cost of living in apartment complexes, so I doubt lower income people would have all this extra money to put back into the economy.


    Being a minimum wage employee I am completely against a raise on minimum wage.
    You're going to use walmart as an example? Really? A company that cheated people out of over time pay? A company that on any given night in any store has 10-15 customers and maybe 2 cashiers forcing customers to wait long periods of time? A company that constantly cuts corners to save money? A company that makes billions a year? They pay you to do two jobs to save money? Please. They do it to make more money. When your company makes billions you're no longer doing anything to save money. I wonder why Wal-Mart has more employees on public aid than any other because they dont want to get cheaper insurance otr pay full time employees. Honestly I feel sorry for you that you work there.

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoCrew5 View Post
    Continue believing what MSM and Obama continue to say. I see they got some people brainwashed already.

    Isn't it funny how all the people who own a small business on here say that raising the min. wage is a bad idea? Obama could care less about business owners. As long as people can continue getting unemployment and their food stamps.
    I own a small business and this won't effect me one bit. No one would do construction for minimum wage anyway. Way too hard of work for 9.00$ an hour. This will mostly effect the big businesses that employ a lot of people. Most small business types do most of the work themselves or are so specialized that they already pay their people more then 9$ an hour anyway. Most minimum wage jobs are very low skill/low reward jobs offered by big business. This is only a big deal because the big corporations big wigs are now going to lose 3% of their bonuses this year. Only going up like .45 cents here anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by debo View Post
    Many "small business owners" have no business running a business.

    So, so true.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chazm View Post
    Exactly! And it used to be that starting a biz in America was easy, taxes were low, regs were low and big brother wasn't breathing down your back.

    Raising min wages, new regulations, unemployment, etc. are just ensuring that big businesses will take their companies else where.
    Minimum wage was much higher relative to the time then it is now. You would have hated it.
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  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chazm View Post
    Exactly! And it used to be that starting a biz in America was easy, taxes were low, regs were low and big brother wasn't breathing down your back.

    Raising min wages, new regulations, unemployment, etc. are just ensuring that big businesses will take their companies else where.
    Minimum wage was much higher relative to the time then it is now. You would have hated it.
    Min wage wasn't started until 1938. More regs were put into place starting around then too, slowly making it harder on businesses.

    I haven't made min wage since 1995 when it was $4.25 and now it's going to be more than doubled...but yeah inflation has only been 2% ha!

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