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  1. #1
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    Is Thibs a bit short-sighted?

    Was listening to the Carmen, Jurko and Harry show the other day and a good point was raised that I had been recently thinking about. Is Thibs a little bit shortsighted in his approach? What he was doing with Deng, working him like a rented mule, was in my opinion an isolated example but now that we see how he is managing Joakim's minutes I think it's safe to say that it is it starting to become a pattern. To not shut him down short-term is a big mistake and I hope he is not giving into an RG3 like plea from Noah to play.

    I think Thibs approach in general is one that focuses on the immediate results and loses sight of the ultimate goal - which is to succeed in the playoffs. If our players are not healthy and/or at a reasonable level of strength/energy come playoff time, the Bulls won't be in the best position to maximize their potential and to play to their strengths, which are out hustling and out-rebounding the other team. Another example of mismanaged minutes was Rose two years ago, who was gassed by the time we met the Heat.

    I think this style stems from Thibs extreme competitive nature. And i think he is a proud man. However, even the most athletic players have limits and need timely rest. I freakin love Thibs and think he is likely the second best coach this organization has ever seen. But I would like to see him take a modified page from Pop's play book, trust in his bench (which admittedly is not the best) a little more, even if it means winning less games in the regular season.

  2. #2
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    Yes, he is, but despite that flaw, he is still easily a top 5 coach in the league.

  3. #3
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    Yep definitely agree

  4. #4
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    i wish noah would've sat last night out. and boston. and as weekend. that's a good chunk of time to heal. wasted..

  5. #5
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    short answer, yes. He's still the 2nd best coach in the league though.

  6. #6
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    Thibs always seems to go the win at all costs route for every game. Thing is, he only runs Deng and Noah into the ground. Guys like Hinrich and Hamilton he seems to go the other way and be extremely cautious. Noah never was pushed this hard until this season, and the front office not replacing Asik with quality is the main reason he is playing so much. He needs to play Mohammed regardless of how much he sux. Noah is as big of a concern in my opinion as Rose coming back. We need the Noah with all the energy and hustle we have had this year, not the 70 percent Noah the last few games. If Noah in the playoffs is only part the player he has been this year we don't stand much of a chance come playoff time.

  7. #7
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    I blame the cheap ***** in the FO.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    short answer, yes. He's still the 2nd best coach in the league though.
    I disagree, I think the short answer is no. Incoming long answer:

    I don't think Thibs is short-sighted at all. As nice as it is to look at the Bulls rotation and say, "there's a problem there;" it isn't a result of Thibs coaching/judgement so much as the front office that has failed to produce competent players at the end of the bench (Nazr and VRad) -- it happens, especially at the end of the bench. Sure Thibs could have pulled out 'his guys' (Noah, Deng, and even Rose) at various points in winning games, but I am assured that thought is one consistently filtered to him through the coaching/medical staff when it's necessary.

    I also don't believe Thibs is as unwilling to acknowledge the point of 'too many minutes' like certain Chicago media members believe (B&B, ESPN, etc.) - instead, that he simply cannot do so without breaking eggs. What would you like your head coach to do; throw those untrusted players under the bus and potentially create strife in the locker room; criticize the front office for failing to produce the talent needed to prevent the problem; or continue to play hard, win games, and remain relevant? There's no compromise on answering the question at all and I think Thibs' stubbornness on the point is yet another example of how smart of a coach he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravistarr View Post
    Another example of mismanaged minutes was Rose two years ago, who was gassed by the time we met the Heat.
    I don't think Rose being gassed is a reasonable example of Thibs mismanaging minutes at all considering the fact that Rose WAS the team's offense. I would go one step further and question whether Rose was even "gassed" at all considering his production across those games. Remembering that 2011 playoffs came to a close over a handful of possessions, and I like the example even less.

    The blame for Noah and Deng being ridden into the ground, for the longest time, has been a result of a lack of depth and proper production at their respective positions -- something that has changed with the departure of Asik and the emergence of Butler. This season, Thibs has been faced with the difficult challenge of remaining relevant without Rose, and I think everyone would agree that he's succeeded marvelously. I remain unconcerned that he has to rely on Noah and Deng to carry that load considering there is still a giant question mark looming over Derrick Rose.

    Could plans of winning a title be hampered by the heavy use of certain players? Of course, but in a season full of question marks, I think Thibs has answered each and every one of them in a resoundingly positive way.

    The concern that Thibs "doesn't rest his guys enough," MUST be tempered by the expectations attached to Rose's return - wherever they may rest. For me, there is no failure this season. The Bulls know more about the guys on their roster than they ever would have known if Rose remained healthy. This season is about discovery and deciding which pieces the team keeps to surround Rose going forward, a point further supported by the Bulls entertaining the idea of a BIG trade for Gallo.

    In many regards, a title this season would be even more unexpected, historic, and unprecedented than anyone would ever give the Bulls credit for - I also think it's setting the bar a bit high.
    Last edited by TopsyTurvy; 02-12-2013 at 04:05 PM.

  9. #9
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    yes he is,its why he didnt get a head coaching job for so long.he so competitive that the big picture gets lost.this was brought up coming in,so it shouldnt be a surprise to anyone

  10. #10
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    my thought was more along the lines of...

    Do the Bulls have to win every game this year in order to win the championship? No. They need to be healthy to do that, regardless of where they end up seeding wise. Yes blame the FO, because they deserve a piece of that pie. But Thibs is short-sighted in the frame of playing Deng/Noah 40+ minutes when he doesn't have to. A regular season loss here and there won't matter if the team is completely healthy in the playoffs. And that's the only gripe I have with Thibs because it's not hard to do so:

    Deng plays 34 minutes... Jimmy plays 14 minutes at SF.
    Noah plays 32 minutes at center, Boozer plays 32 minutes at center, Taj plays 16 minutes at each position.

    Nobody has to play 40 minutes night in and night out.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    And that's the only gripe I have with Thibs because it's not hard to do so:

    Deng plays 34 minutes... Jimmy plays 14 minutes at SF.
    Noah plays 32 minutes at center, Boozer plays 32 minutes at center, Taj plays 16 minutes at each position.

    Nobody has to play 40 minutes night in and night out.
    I don't think it's ever that simple considering this team is showing the ability to win night in and night out and the matchups the Bulls face. If the player's will is there, who is a coach to say that someone needs to ride the bench because they are playing too many minutes? A doctor, even a team doctor, is a different situation all together.

    Thibs certainly cannot look at Noah and say "no," without running the risk of losing something in Noah's mentality, trust, or edge. I don't think any coach in the league would shut down Deng or Noah prior to the all-star break for these injuries, and I fully expect that as the playoff picture solidifies, minutes will be much more judiciously conserved.

    We're also not talking about past-their-prime players either, even though Noah may earn a label as injury prone in some eyes.

    After this season is all over, IF the Bulls miss out on a title because of a nagging Noah or Deng injury - I can live with it considering what the Bulls had to go through this season to get that far. It's not a disappointment at all considering everything stacked against the Bulls and Thib's certainly cannot be blamed. Reload and bring it again next season at full strength.

    I don't understand why so many fans rush to the extremes of tank the season, rebuild the roster, OR do everything possible to win a title and anything less is failure.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    I don't think it's ever that simple considering this team is showing the ability to win night in and night out and the matchups the Bulls face. If the player's will is there, who is a coach to say that someone needs to ride the bench because they are playing too many minutes? A doctor, even a team doctor, is a different situation all together.

    Thibs certainly cannot look at Noah and say "no," without running the risk of losing something in Noah's mentality, trust, or edge. I don't think any coach in the league would shut down Deng or Noah prior to the all-star break for these injuries, and I fully expect that as the playoff picture solidifies, minutes will be much more judiciously conserved.

    We're also not talking about past-their-prime players either, even though Noah may earn a label as injury prone in some eyes.

    After this season is all over, IF the Bulls miss out on a title because of a nagging Noah or Deng injury - I can live with it considering what the Bulls had to go through this season to get that far. It's not a disappointment at all considering everything stacked against the Bulls and Thib's certainly cannot be blamed. Reload and bring it again next season at full strength.

    I don't understand why so many fans rush to the extremes of tank the season, rebuild the roster, OR do everything possible to win a title and anything less is failure.
    If Thibs sat Noah down, it wouldn't be "riding the bench" because he played 5 minutes less a game. If Thibs confronted Noah and Deng and said "I know you guys, just like everyone in this organization and on this team, want to win and leave it all on the court. But we know what the goal for this team is -- a championship. Not a regular season game."

    Then Thibs wouldn't lose anything. Especially since Thibs would be looking out for the best interest of the players. Not winning the title this year wouldn't equate to a failure, but advancing a round in the playoffs isn't exactly a success either.

  13. #13
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    I agree 100% with dodge sham to the point that I have nothing else to add.
    I got this

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    my thought was more along the lines of...

    Do the Bulls have to win every game this year in order to win the championship? No. They need to be healthy to do that, regardless of where they end up seeding wise. Yes blame the FO, because they deserve a piece of that pie. But Thibs is short-sighted in the frame of playing Deng/Noah 40+ minutes when he doesn't have to. A regular season loss here and there won't matter if the team is completely healthy in the playoffs. And that's the only gripe I have with Thibs because it's not hard to do so:

    Deng plays 34 minutes... Jimmy plays 14 minutes at SF.
    Noah plays 32 minutes at center, Boozer plays 32 minutes at center, Taj plays 16 minutes at each position.

    Nobody has to play 40 minutes night in and night out.
    Pretty much this. What we are talking about is tweaks to minute allotments - and frankly those tweaks would likely not result in dramatic won/loss differences. Even if they did, once we are in the playoffs and healthy, anything can happen.

    And Topsy, I agree about the all or nothing championship. It's not only about that- but seeing progress. My concern is that we might not be able to SEE the progress hoped for, if we go into the playoffs injured or gassed.

    And with regards to being tired for the Heat two years ago - while Rose has not come out and said so definitively (and probably would never do so) and certainly a lot is owed to the Heat's defensive strategy, to the naked eye there was not much doubt that he was tired.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    If Thibs sat Noah down, it wouldn't be "riding the bench" because he played 5 minutes less a game. If Thibs confronted Noah and Deng and said "I know you guys, just like everyone in this organization and on this team, want to win and leave it all on the court. But we know what the goal for this team is -- a championship. Not a regular season game."
    As a fan, I would like to say I am 100% confident that this subject is broached and is discussed on a nightly basis, especially with Noah being injured, but the reality is I cannot be certain. I am however reassured that when asked about the minutes he's playing with this injury says:

    “I just don’t have a good answer to give you guys,” [Noah] said. “There’s no right or wrong, it’s just trying to find something that works.”
    "There's really not that much you can do right now," [Noah] said, as he iced the foot in a huge bucket. "I just want to keep getting all the treatments, and I want to be out there on the court for my teammates."
    This is a team that is fully invested in what Thibs preaches and it shows on the court with results - it's not a flaw. It's a sign of mutual trust and respect. I don't think any NBA coaches would second guess a player cleared to play by doctors who WANTS to contribute unless it subtracts from the team's ability to win - obviously not the case with the Bulls. I actually fear the opposite more - Thibs resting players that don't want it.

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