Grillzlies coach Hollins ticked off at front office for moves

[Vinylman]

There is more than one guy in charge. They have a whole team, and there is a crew of statisticians for each team.

I don't want to turn this into an argument that AS aren't useful... obviously they are one of many tools teams use to assemble teams...

I asked a specific question... who was doing AS for the Lakers in their last two championship runs and what information was used to assemble or improve the team to win those chips...

I know the answer to this ... i just want Hawkeye to support his overgeneralization that using AS is why the last 5 champs are champs...

what was the AS contribution in Miami that got them over the top? Wasn't the roster exactly the same last year as it was the year before? Did they use AS to bring in Lebron and Bosh? or even Ray Allen this year?

It has been insignificant in 4 of the last 5 chips (Celtics/Lakers/Miami)... it can be argued that Dallas employed it in an effective manner... yet it is fairly easy to dismiss the dallas championship as nothing more than the stars aligning and a team getting on a roll (the reality of their chip)

[KniCks4LiFe]

I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

[Guppyfighter]

I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

They never had a dirk to start with.

[KniCks4LiFe]

They never had a dirk to start with.

no one said they did.

[Chronz]

My thing is, regardless, they are going to need those shots. Adding a more efficient player isn't going to assure you of never playing in tight games or have to create in empty possessions. Every single team has to do that.

The point is that your going to need less of those plays, which can make the difference in close games, in that you will be the one in actual control because you've been so effective throughout.

Like let me put it this way, if the Grizz had Battier in the series vs us, we prolly lose that series. So often they had to rely on Gay to score in isolation and he was locked down by the simplest of strategies. If instead of being down 1-2 pts they were up 1-2 points, the outcome of the game could go differently despite you lacking that "iso player".

The greater point Im trying to make, is if Gay is your idea of that kind of player, you may as well move on because the he hasn't been for the Grizz. In fact, Id say hes been part of the problem.

You can't even guarantee that being a more efficient team will put you in better positions to finish games. The game isn't played in a vaccuum like that.

Irrelevant, you cant gaurantee that having an isolation scorer will put you in better position to finish games either. But what do you make of the fact that isolation scoring drops more than any other play type come post season?

Battier and his limited skillset makes you a much easier team to defend than a guy like Gay.

I disagree completely, Battier makes up for his limited skillset by maximizing a dominant trait (corner shooting, brilliant reads) that depending on the skillset of his teammates can improve an offense more than a low% chucker can. Its why the Grizz were better offensively with Battier than they ever were with Rudy Gay. I saw the same thing play out in Houston. Towards the end when much of Tmac's value was his ability to create something out of nothing, Battier was regularly having a greater impact on the teams offense. Like back then if you had Tmac+Yao but no Battier, the offense wasnt that good. But if you had atleast 1 shot creator with Battier, the offense ran much more crisply. Thats because as talented as you have to be to draw attention and or create off the bounce, you equally need players who can knock down those plays and space the floor. Granted Gay is better than that version of Tmac, you get what Im trying to say.

Battier puts no pressure on the interior D, you can shut him out with your worst defender as long as they don't fall asleep on him.

The problem is, if your shutting down Battier, that means your leaving the lane open for his primary options. In other words, hes doing his job. Hell we saw how spaced out the best shot blocker in the game last year and that was a declining Battier. I totally get your point about Battier's weaknesses but its about who he has with him as well. On certain teams, Battier will have more of an impact than others, same with shot creators.

I don't even think you can say adding a more efficient individual player like Battier will make your team more efficient team overall. They were a different team back than, Battier/Gay wasn't the only difference, and I have said for years Mayo was extremely underrated for that team.

The key is studying those differences. Feel free to give your input on those differences and I will give you mine.

My main point is that, every team needs that 33.3% late clock shooter, because a playoff defense is going to force you into those shots, regardless of the quality of your offense.

I do believe there is value in what your saying, I just think in the case of Gay, its overvalued. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. How you play throughout 100% of the game will always be more important to me than how you play on a select few possessions. We just dont view the game the same way.

I also don't think it matters that Gay wasn't elite at what he does. Its the fact that he does what he does, and nobody else on the team does it. Same comparison with Felton and the Knicks, hes not that good at what he does, yet makes our team so much more dynamic and difficult to defend.

Felton vs who tho?

[Guppyfighter]

I'm not saying discount. But the Dallas ship' I mean a big part of that was playoff tested vets and a big star in Dirk. Memphis doesn't have that after this trade. Maybe you protect the ball a little better but your system is in the limbo.

Good job.

[Chronz]

Likewise my friend, considering you thought it was a big deal the stat geek in the Mavs FO got one.

Except I know that he was the first to get a ring. If being the first isn't a big deal then its at least a notable one.

And what kind of ring did your friend get anyways? I have a hard time believing everyone gets the same kind of ring.

[Hawkeye15]

lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.

It is on the coach and his players. There should be set plays for late shot clock situations. Most teams that have a shot creator they just chuck to in a bailout attempt end up having lesser success, unless they have one of the few eilte ones, of which Gay is far from.

The playoffs are not won by isolations dude. Not even close. They are won by the better team, with the more balanced offense/defense. Holllins has not done a good job of running early sets to avoid putting his team in that situation, and Rudy holding onto the ball doesn't help the issue.

[Chronz]

I asked a specific question... who was doing AS for the Lakers in their last two championship runs and what information was used to assemble or improve the team to win those chips...

I know the answer to this ... i just want Hawkeye to support his overgeneralization that using AS is why the last 5 champs are champs...

I honestly wasn't aware that the Lakers even had a statistical consultant . From how their roster has been built the last few years it seems they simply just go for the big names with no regards to bench players and whatnot. Not a bad thing but thats more about money/market than advanced scouting.

what was the AS contribution in Miami that got them over the top? Wasn't the roster exactly the same last year as it was the year before? Did they use AS to bring in Lebron and Bosh? or even Ray Allen this year?

In terms of roster construction it didn't play a role, it doesn't take much analysis to realize going after Bron/Bosh is good for your team. It had more of a role in terms of projecting the newcomers numbers and where they would be best effective. You can chalk that up to plain old fashion scouting, but Spoelstra knew the numbers and it shaped his strat.

It has been insignificant in 4 of the last 5 chips (Celtics/Lakers/Miami)... it can be argued that Dallas employed it in an effective manner... yet it is fairly easy to dismiss the dallas championship as nothing more than the stars aligning and a team getting on a roll (the reality of their chip)

Well that depends on how you view things, Daryl Morey was actually in Boston before being hired by the Rockets. In his short time in Boston IIRC he was a huge fan of Rondo and Scalabrine (yes I know). Then with Houston he worked with JVG and his assistant (Tom Thibs) and provided them with intense scouting reports. By intense I mean the kind of analysis that Thibs covets, like what kind of fouls refs are more prone to calling and what not.

You could argue that it was Morey's super computer tactics that improved an already genius defensive mind. That mind played a huge role in Boston's defense and subsequently how the league at large now defends. (Loading up strong side box has never been so prevalent)

Stats dont play a huge role in the big picture, but they provide a competitive advantage at finding daimonds in the rough and building a supporting cast.

Ive said this a million times, the move for LeBron James will net you more victories, but being able to find a valuable role players late in the draft requires more intellect and analysis which can net you great returns later.

Not buying your Dallas argument tho

[Chronz]

Perhaps Im not doing a good enough job of explaining the phenomena of an inferior individual talent producing better TEAM results.

Ill bring up some stats to illuminate my point.

In 2011 the Grizz made that memorable run, that season here is how the numbers (per36minutes) break down for the key members of the Grizz.

                With Battier on the court     ---------    With Gay on the court    
Mike Conley:    16pts (48FG%)                                   13.5PTS (45FG%)
OJ Mayo    :    16pts (3p% .45)                                 15.2PTS (40FG%)
Z-Bo       :    22.3pts (50FG%)                                 18.6pts (48FG%)
Gasol      :    14.2pts (52FG%)                                 12.6pts (52FG%)

Now its one thing to put more pressure on your teammates to score, but making them both more prolific and efficient is something of true value.
So while Battier himself may be easier to contain, the intangible impact he has on his teammates is strong enough to offset that in most comparisons. And when your talking about someone whos played as poorly as Gay has this year, its easy to see why its time to move on. Even if Gay looks better in Toronto, I think he had enough time to make it work in Memphis, if it was even possible given their poor sets.

Basically, the reason Gay looked good (if you feel he looked good) was partly because he made his teammates look worse (in a comparison vs a truly efficient outlet option).

[Quinnsanity]

They're better now. Ed Davis gives them the extra big man they needed to spell Gasol and Zbo without losing much production, Prince gives them an incredible defensive combo on the perimeter. This is just a better version of the team that beat the Spurs. Advanced stats are the way of the future.

[DR_1]

Nice to see a coach finally calling an owner out for being cheap. Tough for the coach to do his job if all the owner wants to do is save money.

[Chronz]

Nice to see a coach finally calling an owner out for being cheap. Tough for the coach to do his job if all the owner wants to do is save money.

Tough for an owner to swallow the contract when his coach isn't getting **** out of such a player.

[rockbottom2010]

lol, he's not the only one. I think Casey's quietly mad in toronto as well.

why would casey get mad...the raptors just got a bit better

[mzgrizz]

I really can't believe people are still buying into Rudy Gay being a star caliber player. This isn't going to hurt the Grizz at all, unless continuity is the issue. Cause it won't be the level of talent dropping off. They get an upgrade on defense at the wings, who can stretch the floor much better than Gay, and great depth up front, all while becoming more financially flexible. Toronto is the one that lost this trade.

Still think this, Hawkeye? I'd like to believe it................