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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNash View Post
    So how much credit are you going to give him?
    More than you.

    Obviously that team was led by Dirk which arrived long before. Same with Terry/Kidd.
    Nope, Kidd was brought in partly because of Winstons anaylsis on clutch play. It was a trade berated by many, including myself but Harris was a flash in the pan and Kidd's clutch play inevitably played a greater role than Harris ever could. Seriously read up on them, at least if you intend on bashing the revolution.

    Bringing in Chandler was obviously due to Cuban's checkbook more than a statistician finding some hidden gem. So how much credit would you give?
    WW helped identify Rick Carlisle's propensity for playing optimal lineups, which played a role in his hire. Not sold on your Chandler theory.

    He has helped as a tacticion in terms of lineup analysis dating back to the Rockets series IIRC.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    My buddy works for the Miami Heat as an entry level production assistant. He got a ring last year. Nearly every employee in the organization gets a ring. If ya don't believe me here ya go. http://instagram.com/p/TJvpjoKyYn/

    I wouldn't put all that much stock into that.
    Thats good news but Winston was the first. Maybe teams now understand their value. Also Spoelstra/Riley are pretty smart stat guys so I can understand why they would follow suit.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  3. #48
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    Ever wonder why Melo always led the NBA by a wide margin on game winners, percentage wise? Because Karl ran a set play to get him a high percentage shot, versus other teams just giving it to their guy and clearing out.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    btw, the last 5 NBA champions all employ statistical analytics crews. Sorry guys, its part of the current and future NBA. The old days of going with your gut have been molded.
    Advanced stats had very little impact on any of those teams. Last five champions Celtics, Lakers, Lakers, Mavs, Heat.

    Celtics made blockbuster trades for KG and Allen to play with Pierce. Lakers made a blockbuster trade for Pau to play with Kobe and Odom. Mavericks made a big trade for Tyson Chandler to play with Dirk and Terry that finally provided them with the tough defensive center they had needed for years. Heat signed Lebron and Bosh to play with Wade.

    If anything advanced stats were used to evaluate roll/bench player not put the core of a champion together. Old school blockbuster trades to add to their drafted superstars is what made these teams champions.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevj77 View Post
    Advanced stats had very little impact on any of those teams. Last five champions Celtics, Lakers, Lakers, Mavs, Heat.

    Celtics made blockbuster trades for KG and Allen to play with Pierce. Lakers made a blockbuster trade for Pau to play with Kobe and Odom. Mavericks made a big trade for Tyson Chandler to play with Dirk and Terry that finally provided them with the tough defensive center they had needed for years. Heat signed Lebron and Bosh to play with Wade.

    If anything advanced stats were used to evaluate roll/bench player not put the core of a champion together. Old school blockbuster trades to add to their drafted superstars is what made these teams champions.
    First you have to be able to identify superstars, and the lineups that would fit best. These are done by the stat heads. And then yes, role players with various needs need to be identified on what production they bring. This is done by stat heads as well. Look, nobody is saying that a computer will put a team together. Hollinger, and most NBA hired stat nerd watches more basketball than any of us. On top of that, they use numbers to gauge value along with what their scouts and their eyes see.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  6. #51
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    he should be even more upset cuz Zach Randolph is next.

    This is how we do it! I still believe



  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Starks View Post
    I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs.
    But he couldn't always get you a bucket in that fashion.

    Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch
    Based on what tho?

    and he's a versatile defender.
    Whats the point of versatility if your barely average defensively? Tay is pretty versatile but I have my doubts hes the same defender he used to be. We'll find out.
    Yo Kobe, get at me bro, we'd have a good time, man

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    So does almost every team. Point is, teams are using this now. And the Bobcats weren't using them when they put together the embarrassment they have now. The GOAT was calling the shots, based on his gut feelings and expertise.
    Actually, Rod Higgins was.





  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    I am sticking to my belief that shot creators are so overvalued. Unless you get a good one, they just dupe you into believing they are the only option when the clock is winding down, instead of being creative as a coach.
    lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

    All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post
    If you have to take a contested deep shot, you are going to lose anyways.

    Anyways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqu1sVzOvVs

    Spurs run the best sets in the NBA: they don't need a shot creator.
    You think I'm talking about coming out of a timeout?

    Every team has to take deep contested shots to win playoff games. If you have nobody that can do it, your not gonna win games.

    Spurs run tremendous offensive sets, but even they come up empty, and they are relegated to leaving Parker out there to pull up from 15-20 where he hits a ton of huge buckets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    If you can coach, like Pops, you don't need a bail out guy. The Spurs run plays at the end of the clock, not just chuck it to the one guy who can get a long contested 2 off...

    Having and efficient bail out guy is one thing. But trying to identify each teams best one, even if you overlook they flat out are not good at it, is another. Again, the shot creator mentality gets coaches in trouble. Instead of running a basketball play, they just throw it to their one on one winner in practice and let him chuck away. That is laziness, unless you have LeBron, Durant, Kobe, and a few others.
    Except the Spurs have had bail out guys every year they've been a contender. And they run high pick and rolls with Parker who spots up from mid range, and creates a shot late in the clock out of nothing. Its the same idea, Parker loves the mid range jumpers and right now hes there guy who takes those bailout shots. Hes a scorer before a distributer. It used to be Manu.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    lol, so you think a creative coach is going to draw up a set mid-shot clock after the original set comes up empty?

    All late clock possessions end in iso's, even for the most creative coaches. Thats what good defenses who study your offensive sets and play you 7 games straight in a playoff series do. They force you to beat them with tough shots. Being 'creative', whatever you mean by that, isn't getting you layups in a gut wrenching game 7 against a great defense.

    This reasoning is why these guys are overvalued. You are talking about one possession of a game full of hundreds of possessions.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post
    This reasoning is why these guys are overvalued. You are talking about one possession of a game full of hundreds of possessions.
    I'm not talking about 1 possession. I'm talking about late shot clock possessions as well.

    And while its the minority of the possessions, those are the key possessions that tight playoff games come down to. I think those possessions need to be microanalyzed more than your average possession. Your offensive sets will get you some layups, wide open shots in rhythm throughout a game, you will be hard pressed to get those same easy looks in a clutch possession.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 02-01-2013 at 06:19 PM.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I'm not talking about 1 possession. I'm talking about late shot clock possessions as well.
    Teams like the Clippers need this ability from CP3 because their coach runs some of the worst offensive sets in basketball. However, a team like the Spurs, they run the best sets and do not need this ability. And the Spurs playoff resume speaks for itself.

    Having a coach who can run good sets is more important than a "shot creator."

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Thats good news but Winston was the first. Maybe teams now understand their value. Also Spoelstra/Riley are pretty smart stat guys so I can understand why they would follow suit.
    The first what? All I said was even low level employees get championship rings. Cuban giving him a ring doesn't mean he praises his work any more than his former NBA player employees, or his video production guys, or his marketing guys. Its standard procedure.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post
    Teams like the Clippers need this ability from CP3 because their coach runs some of the worst offensive sets in basketball. However, a team like the Spurs, they run the best sets and do not need this ability. And the Spurs playoff resume speaks for itself.

    Having a coach who can run good sets is more important than a "shot creator."
    You can run the best sets in the world but your ability to win a championship is going to come down to your ability to get stops, and hit tough shots that would otherwise be considered 'stops' for the defense.

    You think Pop just draws up layup miracle plays all game long through the playoffs?

    Having a coach who runs good sets won't win you a chip without shot creators. I think history has proven that.

    Two guys who are considered pretty braindead coaches who don't run very creative sets beat two XO masterminds in the conference finals last year.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

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