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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNash View Post
    So do the Charlotte Bobcats.
    Yea and its about time MJ did so. Funny how the best draft the greatest player of all time ever had, was chosen by his stat head GM.

    "It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveNash View Post
    Besides that, it's hard to judge the level of influence on decisions unless they are the actual GM. Which we have in Morey who has been terrible.
    Utterly false. And check out what Cuban has said about the stat guy he valued enough to give a championship ring to.

    "It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    so what? Beasley was that for the Wolves, it didn't mean he didn't suck, it meant he could create his own shot. High volume shot creators are the most overvalued players in the NBA. Just because you CAN get a shot off, doesn't mean you are good at knocking it down.
    Its still a skillset a championship team needs. Grizz had it with Gay. They don't have it anymore. Most regarded them as a championship contender. Now when the game slows down and you need a late isolation score from the perimeter your not gonna get it and might not even get a shot off in those situations. Regardless if Gay was elite at it, he was essential in that role within the team dynamic. Felton is not efficient or even better than mediocre, but we have nobody else on the Knicks that can fill his role, and our team falls off a cliff when hes out. You could say the same for Gay, nobody on that team can step up and fill that role that all contenders need to fill.

    If they kept Mayo this would be a non issue.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    Its still a skillset a championship team needs. Grizz had it with Gay. They don't have it anymore. Most regarded them as a championship contender. Now when the game slows down and you need a late isolation score from the perimeter your not gonna get it and might not even get a shot off in those situations. Regardless if Gay was elite at it, he was essential in that role within the team dynamic. Felton is not efficient or even better than mediocre, but we have nobody else on the Knicks that can fill his role, and our team falls off a cliff when hes out. You could say the same for Gay, nobody on that team can step up and fill that role that all contenders need to fill.

    If they kept Mayo this would be a non issue.
    If its a required skillset, go find someone way better at it than Gay.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    If its a required skillset, go find someone way better at it than Gay.
    Well, to do it now would mean you probably have to sacrifice some quality assets. And at that point your hurting your team elsewhere to fill that role. They had all the bases covered with a complete team, they don't anymore. Top 10 position players don't grow on trees.

    You think the fact that the last 5 champions had stat crews is a huge correlation but the fact that every single championship team sans the '04 Pistons had a wing player who could take and make deep contested shots late in clocks and late in games doesn't matter?
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 02-01-2013 at 06:16 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Utterly false. And check out what Cuban has said about the stat guy he valued enough to give a championship ring to.
    So how much credit are you going to give him?

    Obviously that team was led by Dirk which arrived long before. Same with Terry/Kidd. Bringing in Chandler was obviously due to Cuban's checkbook more than a statistician finding some hidden gem. So how much credit would you give?
    Dwight Howard is a Top 5 Center of All-Time, no one in this league can touch him.

    The Orlando Magic are a dominant contender and are a better franchise than I ever thought possible.

    Raph12 is always right.

  7. #37
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    My buddy works for the Miami Heat as an entry level production assistant. He got a ring last year. Nearly every employee in the organization gets a ring. If ya don't believe me here ya go. http://instagram.com/p/TJvpjoKyYn/

    I wouldn't put all that much stock into that.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 02-01-2013 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    so what? Beasley was that for the Wolves, it didn't mean he didn't suck, it meant he could create his own shot. High volume shot creators are the most overvalued players in the NBA. Just because you CAN get a shot off, doesn't mean you are good at knocking it down.

    I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

    I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......


    BRIA MYLES.....SWAG!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Starks View Post
    I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

    I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......
    I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.
    Last edited by D-Leethal; 02-01-2013 at 06:08 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Well then he should have come up with a better offensive system, one that made use of his talents abilities. This whole slow it down and grind it out thing is partly why Gay struggled IMO.



    Sadly he was also a guy who couldn't make high% shots EARLY in the shot clock and is partly why their offense is so ******. I blame the coach and Rudy for their failures.
    I don't think Rudy/Marc/Zbo was a prime fit but I also don't think LBJ and Wade are prime fits. I don't think Westbrook and Durant are prime fits. Its tough to build a system around Gay/ZBo/Marc that is going to play to all of their strengths. Hollins went with the bruisers inside instead of the fast pace finesse player, and Rudy had to sacrifice his game as a result.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye15 View Post
    For sure, but for all his gifts, he shoots way too many long 2's, and just doesn't attack enough. Would having a faster paced team help him? Probably. Will they employ that in Toronto, or will he be an inefficient jump shooter again?
    Yea I dont get how someone whos been in a steady environment with the same teammates for so long, could decline like this. I havent checked the numbers much but at first I thought maybe they were slowing it down more to favor the improving Gasol. But looking at his shot selection based on shot clock tendency, hes not shooting as well as he did last year early in the shot clock. He is taking slightly more shots with the clock running down (Which is about the only valuable skill he has as a final shot creator) and he is making more of them than he did last year.

    Sadly his efficiency early in the shot clock has suffered dramatically. Last year Gay had an eFG% of 60% on shots taken within 10 seconds, this year its down to 47%. Similar declines in the 11-15 range.

    Gotta go through a synergy session to see if hes just not attacking the rack or what but hes essentially lost 2ppg off his average simply from not scoring early in the possession any more despite actually being assisted more often. Its ****ing wierd for sure.


    That said, he cant play any worse and maybe the Raps should consider playing him at the 4 extensively. I think you have to maximize Gay to make sense of this trade

    "It’s absolutely ludicrous” (to judge players based on whether they’ve won a title.)

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Starks View Post
    I don't know, a guy that can always get you a bucket without a play is invaluable in the playoffs. Gay was also fairly reliable with big shots coming down the stretch and he's a versatile defender.

    I'd take him over an aging Taysuan any day of the week......
    I am sticking to my belief that shot creators are so overvalued. Unless you get a good one, they just dupe you into believing they are the only option when the clock is winding down, instead of being creative as a coach.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chronz View Post
    Yea I dont get how someone whos been in a steady environment with the same teammates for so long, could decline like this. I havent checked the numbers much but at first I thought maybe they were slowing it down more to favor the improving Gasol. But looking at his shot selection based on shot clock tendency, hes not shooting as well as he did last year early in the shot clock. He is taking slightly more shots with the clock running down (Which is about the only valuable skill he has as a final shot creator) and he is making more of them than he did last year.

    Sadly his efficiency early in the shot clock has suffered dramatically. Last year Gay had an eFG% of 60% on shots taken within 10 seconds, this year its down to 47%. Similar declines in the 11-15 range.

    Gotta go through a synergy session to see if hes just not attacking the rack or what but hes essentially lost 2ppg off his average simply from not scoring early in the possession any more despite actually being assisted more often. Its ****ing wierd for sure.


    That said, he cant play any worse and maybe the Raps should consider playing him at the 4 extensively. I think you have to maximize Gay to make sense of this trade
    It is weird. I mean, he is 26, and has had as steady of a situation for growth as any player could ask for, yet he is in year 3 of his regression, smack in the middle of his prime. But when I sit here and read a bunch of posters say Toronto won this trade because they got an all star caliber player, I feel the need to bring up that Gay is nowhere in the stratosphere as an all star caliber player over the past 2.5 years.

    Gay guarding PF's is a scary thought. For the Raps.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.
    If you have to take a contested deep shot, you are going to lose anyways.

    Anyways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqu1sVzOvVs

    Spurs run the best sets in the NBA: they don't need a shot creator.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I don't think the importance of that dynamic for a team can be quantified through efficiency or advanced stats. I mean how many huge shots do you recall Manu taking because he was the guy with that skillset to get off shots late in the clock with a stepback bucket? There are certain shots TP and Duncan can't get you, and those are the contested deep shots that great playoff defenses are going to force you to take and make in the playoffs.
    If you can coach, like Pops, you don't need a bail out guy. The Spurs run plays at the end of the clock, not just chuck it to the one guy who can get a long contested 2 off...

    Having and efficient bail out guy is one thing. But trying to identify each teams best one, even if you overlook they flat out are not good at it, is another. Again, the shot creator mentality gets coaches in trouble. Instead of running a basketball play, they just throw it to their one on one winner in practice and let him chuck away. That is laziness, unless you have LeBron, Durant, Kobe, and a few others.

    If you want the ultimate, you've got to be willing to pay the ultimate price. It's not tragic to die doing what you love.

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