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  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mile High Champ View Post
    I just explained who I was calling a hater. It is fine if you don't like the trade but at least let other moves happen before getting frustrated with the overall direction of the team.You talk about compatability yet we don't have our full team going forward and you have yet to see anybody play together as a unit. What would you do as GM? I am curious.
    With Colangelo's track record over the past 5 years as GM, I think it's perfectly reasonable to be cynical with his moves unless he proves otherwise


    The Brilliant Plan of How to Get Andrew Wiggins in a Toronto Uniform
    Quote Originally Posted by deaner View Post
    All I'm saying is the league wants to see Toronto succeeded. An outside chance Silver could say to philly... You know... That's a great trade offer from Toronto for the first pick. It's up to you but we'd love to see wiggins in Toronto.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mile High Champ View Post
    What would you do as GM? I am curious.
    Bramaca has had a consistent attitude about what he thinks a legitimate rebuild is, and its difficult to prove him wrong, ergo I wouldn't bother going down that path with him.

    I have issues with his belief that the low draft selection last season was avoidable "BC should have known the chemistry would have resulted in more wins then he planned for etc." - however his understanding of what success is in the NBA and recognizing the patterns that lead to building a contending team, are sound.

    Bramaca lost patience with BC years ago whereas some of us, including myself, are just now accepting the reality of it all i.e. Bryan is out of control and needs to be stopped.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    Thats sort of a cop out. There are always other moves that can happen so you are basically saying that an opinion can never be made about the direction of a team. There are 7 years of moves to make an opinion on BC's direction. When do you think it is enough to have an opinion on it? 10 years? 15 years?
    To be fair most of the years you are talking about is when the entire franchise was committed to keeping Chris Bosh (Bringing in J.O, Hedo, Marion) really any player we could get our hands on to try and please CB4 any moves B.C made had to stay within that vision he hasn't had that much time to build the team the way he see's fit until Bosh's departure.


    Quote Originally Posted by knicksfan42 View Post
    ...For me a large part of it is that they were rivals. LeBron vs Wade was a great rivalry and for them to team up just doesn't sit right with me. It would've been cool if LeBron had gone to the Bulls.....
    and Bosh to the Heat to join Wade. That would've been awesome... I would've respected LeBron way more if he went there.
    Why have great rivals when you can join them and have none.... Lebron James where losing the spirit of competition happens!

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    Thats sort of a cop out. There are always other moves that can happen so you are basically saying that an opinion can never be made about the direction of a team. There are 7 years of moves to make an opinion on BC's direction. When do you think it is enough to have an opinion on it? 10 years? 15 years?
    You are forgetting about the OTPP stingy ownership practices. The teams that spend the most money win and that wasn't the ownerships plan up until now. Rogers & Bell owning the Media rights have in their best interest to spend a lot of money on the team in order to deliver a better product for their viewers.
    Raptors Franchise Checklist:
    Rebuild with young players [ ]
    Build contending team [ ]
    Host NBA All-Star Weekend [ ]
    Win Championship [ ]

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Mund View Post
    There are some people on here that are SO rational (which I pride myself in being in regards to most situations outside of Toronto Raptors Basketball) that to me it seems like they're not even fans of the team. They bash ownership and all but the over-achievers on the court. Being a fan of the Raps comes with the reality that there's an uphill battle (which is also faced by smaller market teams in the States, but for us it's accompanied by even a couple more caveats...) to compete and to maintain any level of talent. I can COMPLETELY understand not liking decisions, but at the same time I'm still excited to see how things shake down (Turk, JO... bad decisions but at least we tried.) Also, even if we only improve marginally I still see that as an improvement, not a sideways/backwards step in winning a championship in the next 6 years. Some people are just hard to please, and that can often be confused with hate since anything short of the ultimate franchise goal is, to some, a failure.
    As you know I have stood behind BCs decisions many times, mainly because it's a complex management game and there are a lot of moving parts. But he has made some supreme bonehead moves to try to electroshock the team into relevance. This has the same feeling as those moves. What's most disturbing is that I thought he had council on board (Stefanski, Casey) who were there to help him with sober second thought. Parts of what this deal involves seems to go against what Casey would want. On top of that I thought we were seeing a more patient BC and I was happy to live through what it took to rebuild this club. I am concerned that people are expecting too much if they think one or two more big team-improving deals are on the horizon. BC made a critical error in sending a first rounder to Houston for Lowry, now we are just seeing the natural evolution of that sketchy move. Lowry has not been great here, even his followers agree about that, and he is what we are building around? Coupled with an inefficient and cap smothering wing player? Gay may be spectacular and provide the exciting brand of ball that fans eat up, but he has never been a difference maker for his own team and there is really no reason to expect a 7-8 year veteran to suddenly hit a new level just because he's traded. If I'm wrong, so be it, it wouldn't be the first time. But the feeling is not good on this trade. It feels like Hedo II.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    You are forgetting about the OTPP stingy ownership practices. The teams that spend the most money win and that wasn't the ownerships plan up until now. Rogers & Bell owning the Media rights have in their best interest to spend a lot of money on the team in order to deliver a better product for their viewers.
    I see it as the other way around. The teams that get the superstar players end up spending the money because they have those players. They don't get those players because they spend the money. Those players go there either because they were drafted or they go there because it is a desireable market and not because the team is just spending a whole lot of money.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    You are forgetting about the OTPP stingy ownership practices. The teams that spend the most money win and that wasn't the ownerships plan up until now. Rogers & Bell owning the Media rights have in their best interest to spend a lot of money on the team in order to deliver a better product for their viewers.
    Didn't the Raptors spend up to the cap?


    The Brilliant Plan of How to Get Andrew Wiggins in a Toronto Uniform
    Quote Originally Posted by deaner View Post
    All I'm saying is the league wants to see Toronto succeeded. An outside chance Silver could say to philly... You know... That's a great trade offer from Toronto for the first pick. It's up to you but we'd love to see wiggins in Toronto.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by canzano55 View Post
    Bramaca has had a consistent attitude about what he thinks a legitimate rebuild is, and its difficult to prove him wrong, ergo I wouldn't bother going down that path with him.

    I have issues with his belief that the low draft selection last season was avoidable "BC should have known the chemistry would have resulted in more wins then he planned for etc." - however his understanding of what success is in the NBA and recognizing the patterns that lead to building a contending team, are sound.

    Bramaca lost patience with BC years ago whereas some of us, including myself, are just now accepting the reality of it all i.e. Bryan is out of control and needs to be stopped.
    I agree. And as one writer put it, this is the exact opposite situation to the one BC himself inherited. Embry had just ditched a huge albatross salary (Rose) to the Knicks, giving Colangelo a lot of latitude. If BC is replaced after this year the incoming GM would be facing a team hard up against the cap with little room to go, stuck in the treadmill position that no one really wants to occupy. Ironically, the treadmill position that the Grizzlies have been stuck in while they had the following names: Gay, Gasol, Lowry, all names that BC seems interested in obtaining now. Makes you wonder.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    As you know I have stood behind BCs decisions many times, mainly because it's a complex management game and there are a lot of moving parts. But he has made some supreme bonehead moves to try to electroshock the team into relevance. This has the same feeling as those moves. What's most disturbing is that I thought he had council on board (Stefanski, Casey) who were there to help him with sober second thought. Parts of what this deal involves seems to go against what Casey would want. On top of that I thought we were seeing a more patient BC and I was happy to live through what it took to rebuild this club. I am concerned that people are expecting too much if they think one or two more big team-improving deals are on the horizon. BC made a critical error in sending a first rounder to Houston for Lowry, now we are just seeing the natural evolution of that sketchy move. Lowry has not been great here, even his followers agree about that, and he is what we are building around? Coupled with an inefficient and cap smothering wing player? Gay may be spectacular and provide the exciting brand of ball that fans eat up, but he has never been a difference maker for his own team and there is really no reason to expect a 7-8 year veteran to suddenly hit a new level just because he's traded. If I'm wrong, so be it, it wouldn't be the first time. But the feeling is not good on this trade. It feels like Hedo II.
    Excellent post.

    The Colangelo detractors who, at the time, were percieved to be prematurely shouting warnings from the rooftops i.e. "fire B.C before he makes another trade that sinks us" were not false.

    They were right all along, and the worst part is now its too late.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwrighter View Post
    I don't know what else you would rather him do? Raps tanked and we got screwed out of the top 3 pick but luckily jonas fell to us at 5. He picked up a good coach when the time came. We under-performed last season and ended up trying to tank at the end again and got Ross who looks promising. We've stockpiled assets and flipped them for a top 10 PG and top 10 SF.
    How about:
    continue on with Ross, Val, Ed, Amir, DD
    Wait two more years before going crazy with your cap
    Flip your players like Calderon and Bargnani for any draft picks you can get
    You don't trade a 1st rounder for a questionable PG
    Draft two more players that are likely to be lottery picks
    Have a ton of cap room to re-sign your players coming into their prime (if they are worth it)
    Most likely you have a group of young studs that would include AT LEAST 6 lottery picks and probably more depending on what you get on your return

    I'll take my chances with 7-8 home-grown lottery picks as the staple to your team. I think that's a re-build!

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    I see it as the other way around. The teams that get the superstar players end up spending the money because they have those players. They don't get those players because they spend the money. Those players go there either because they were drafted or they go there because it is a desireable market and not because the team is just spending a whole lot of money.
    Teams that don't spend money to get good assets usually aren't a desirable market unless you can prove me wrong on that


    Quote Originally Posted by knicksfan42 View Post
    ...For me a large part of it is that they were rivals. LeBron vs Wade was a great rivalry and for them to team up just doesn't sit right with me. It would've been cool if LeBron had gone to the Bulls.....
    and Bosh to the Heat to join Wade. That would've been awesome... I would've respected LeBron way more if he went there.
    Why have great rivals when you can join them and have none.... Lebron James where losing the spirit of competition happens!

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by magikmc View Post
    How about:
    continue on with Ross, Val, Ed, Amir, DD
    Wait two more years before going crazy with your cap
    Flip your players like Calderon and Bargnani for any draft picks you can get
    You don't trade a 1st rounder for a questionable PG
    Draft two more players that are likely to be lottery picks
    Have a ton of cap room to re-sign your players coming into their prime (if they are worth it)
    Most likely you have a group of young studs that would include AT LEAST 6 lottery picks and probably more depending on what you get on your return

    I'll take my chances with 7-8 home-grown lottery picks as the staple to your team. I think that's a re-build!
    And what if it doesn't work? rebuild another 5 years?


    SWAGUEZ!!!

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghettosean View Post
    To be fair most of the years you are talking about is when the entire franchise was committed to keeping Chris Bosh (Bringing in J.O, Hedo, Marion) really any player we could get our hands on to try and please CB4 any moves B.C made had to stay within that vision he hasn't had that much time to build the team the way he see's fit until Bosh's departure.
    That's the thing though. I, as well as other were saying move Bosh waaaaay back then. You could have started a rebuild at that point. It was a foregone conclusion that A) we weren't winning with Bosh as the centerpiece and B) we weren't gong to be able to keep him.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by ink View Post
    I agree. And as one writer put it, this is the exact opposite situation to the one BC himself inherited. Embry had just ditched a huge albatross salary (Rose) to the Knicks, giving Colangelo a lot of latitude. If BC is replaced after this year the incoming GM would be facing a team hard up against the cap with little room to go, stuck in the treadmill position that no one really wants to occupy. Ironically, the treadmill position that the Grizzlies have been stuck in while they had the following names: Gay, Gasol, Lowry, all names that BC seems interested in obtaining now. Makes you wonder.
    It would be a crappy situation for a new gm to inherit and would take a while to change things around likely resulting in that gm being fired before they get a chance. BC will likely get his extension though and continue on.

  15. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bramaca View Post
    I see it as the other way around. The teams that get the superstar players end up spending the money because they have those players. They don't get those players because they spend the money. Those players go there either because they were drafted or they go there because it is a desireable market and not because the team is just spending a whole lot of money.
    Nope. OKC traded away Harden because they didn't want to spend the money. Same with Rudy Gay in this instance. The Nets were never a desirable location until a billionaire oil tycoon bought the team and was committed to spending.(Dwight wanted to go to the Nets and might still want to go)

    The players will ultimately go to where they can get the most money. Hence why the Lakers continually buy up the best talent and consequently have the highest payroll almost every season.
    Raptors Franchise Checklist:
    Rebuild with young players [ ]
    Build contending team [ ]
    Host NBA All-Star Weekend [ ]
    Win Championship [ ]

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