Rudy Gay to the Raptors Trade Discussion Part II

[Dol-Fan]

Limited budget? Would you rather the Raptors overpayed another free agent on the open market like Kleiza, Kapono, Fields, Hedo etc.. with the money we would had if we let Calderon walk? Sorry I am tried over paying for garbage on the open market. Rudy Gay's stock is low and he only has 2 years left after this season on his deal. If he regains his form and continues to develop, the Raptors have answered one of their biggest needs in landing a great SF. If it does not happen, than so be it.

In the end, If we want to get good players here, it will be done via the trades and the draft. Either is a suitable option. People need to throw the whole OKC model out the window as something to mimic. In the case of OKC, they had a Superstar in Durant fall right into their lap. There is guarantee that building through the draft is the right course. For every team that succeeds in the draft, there are 2 or 3 teams that fail.

No one is forcing is forcing BC to hand out those crazy deals.

[C_Mund]

Rudy is overpaid but people seem to be forgetting the talent the guy has at arguably one of the weakest positions and it's for 2 more years after this season. So soon he could be a huge expiring boarderline all-star. To me it might hurt if we were looking at a big FA this off-season but I don't see it plus if BC can move some contracts it might be that much easier to grab a FA if Gay is here.

Exactly. Like, if we give up a ton of stuff that doesn't include Ross and Val to get Pau, why not? We'll have some massive expiring contracts that, if we don't re-sign, will allow us to trade for picks/young players. I think the whole Rudy experiment is to see if we can make the playoffs in the next couple years, and if we don't I think we know our chances of keeping Gay around. This might just be putting off a true rebuild for a couple years but having so much talent expring in 2015 gives us an opportunity to get away from the Bargs era in true fashion

[Mile High Champ]

To make my opinions on the trade clear, as they have probably been quite vague over the course of the thread:

1) I'm OK with the talent exchange. In that regard, it's probably fair. I like Davis a lot and Calderon was playing well, but as an expiring contract he probably didn't have a ton of value. Davis is a strong young player but PFs like him aren't too hard to come by. No huge loss, and Rudy Gay is a fun player.

2) The financial aspect of the trade is perplexing: we're paying Gay a LOT of money. Add that to Lowry's impending extension and DeRozan's extension, you're playing championship core money to a core characteristic of a treadmill, 5-6-7 seed, if lucky 2nd round (but usually first round) exit type of team. That's not even taking into account Bargnani's deal, which I'm confident will be moved now. Basically, you've got too much money tied into limited players, hindering your flexibility to bring in top notch FAs. You don't have enough surplus talent to trade for stars. You don't have enough cap flexibility to sign stars. You aren't bad enough to draft stars.

3) I am excited in the sense that I think this will be a fun team to watch. I gave up caring about championship aspirations years ago now. So if I refer to the deal with excitement, consider it to be my ambivalence to the team in general just showing through. I don't care enough to get excessively pissed off over a treadmill move. It's par for the course at this point. Just take the exciting basketball and run.

Great post. Number 1 I agree fully with. I am not a Davis fan and I have spend a large part of this thread explaining why he was expendable. Davis will be replaced.

Number 2. I can understand your concern as the financial aspect is curious in its current state. Though we do have to account for the fact that there remains 3 weeks untill the trade deadline. That a lot of time to make trades and who knows, you may see Bargs gone and maybe even DeRozan. Nobody is safe. I will bet good money that the Raptors financial situation will be a lot more clear come Feb 21st.

Number 3, I understand where you are cominig from and part of me feels the same way. Though I am confident this will be a good move and one of the big reasons why the turn around begins here.

[Mile High Champ]

No one is forcing is forcing BC to hand out those crazy deals.

Its market value. Other than the Fields deal, the other guys were going to get paid somewhere in the area of what they got. Kapono was coming off a career season and as was Hedo. The reality is though that the Raps have to overpay on the open market if we want to land good talent.

[pebloemer]

Usually I am in agreement with you but in this case I am not so sure. It is ok to criticize and question the trade but all the pieces have yet to come together. Its like trying the cake before you have a chance to bake it. Its a bad analogy in this case but you get the idea.

As Matt Devlin said yesterday "who got the best player in the trade?" . To me it really is that simple as the contract does not handcuff us in the slightest. He only has 2 years left on the deal.

Well this is really the question right now. And with Calderon and Davis bothing having very strong seasons statistically, and Rudy Gay struggling with his efficiency this question is understandably raised. I think if this trade happened in the off-season, many more people would feel that Rudy Gay is the best play in the deal, but with the manner in which this season has unfolded, it is no longer a confident statement. I personally feel Rudy Gay is the best talent out of the three, even though he is have a terrible season. Are we buying low on Rudy, or is his ability just not enough to live up to the reputation of his name?

I can understand the trepidation of fans to get behind this deal, although I'm not really confident we were going anywhere with Ed Davis or the cap space from Jose's expiring either. I personally think the Rudy Gay deal could provide a higher ceiling for this group, even if I'm not super confident in their ability to reach it. It is a roll of the dice that I really don't mind Colangelo making right now.

No, it's not our money, but if there is a limited budget (which we can assume there is) then you don't want a player of Rudy Gay's calibre making the same money as the best players in the league.

This is true, but we really don't know what the budget is. It isn't ideal to have players "overpaid," but I think it is a reality that most teams have to come to terms with. 2nd tier talent gets 1st tier money simply because of supply and demand. I personally don't think Brooklyn Nets fans care how overpaid Joe Johnson is if he helps that team become a contender. If anything, I'd suggest that this ownership is indicating that it is willing to be a bigger spender than it has been in the past, which I take as a positive sign. What the budget actually is would be interesting to know though.

[Mile High Champ]

Its obvious that building a good team takes time which is why its reasonable to think this move is the exact opposite of that. But being a Yes Man probably makes it hard to see that.

I am anything but a Yes Man. The Raptors landed the best player in the deal and have answered the teams biggest need in years. Rudy Gay is only 26 years old. Its not like we just landed a 34 year old Paul Pierce and we are building around that. At least give Gay a chance before writing him off completly.

What woud be your plan if you were GM? Would you tank? Would you build through the draft?

[Mile High Champ]

After seeing years of cap space being used to overpay for players and draft picks yielding small returns, trades seem like a good bet as any to try and turn things around. The core age of our team going forward is very young. Jonas, Gay, DeRozan & Lowry are all under the age of 26. Lots of opportunity for growth and development.

[magikmc]

There are some people on here that are SO rational (which I pride myself in being in regards to most situations outside of Toronto Raptors Basketball) that to me it seems like they're not even fans of the team. They bash ownership and all but the over-achievers on the court. Being a fan of the Raps comes with the reality that there's an uphill battle (which is also faced by smaller market teams in the States, but for us it's accompanied by even a couple more caveats...) to compete and to maintain any level of talent. I can COMPLETELY understand not liking decisions, but at the same time I'm still excited to see how things shake down (Turk, JO... bad decisions but at least we tried.) Also, even if we only improve marginally I still see that as an improvement, not a sideways/backwards step in winning a championship in the next 6 years. Some people are just hard to please, and that can often be confused with hate since anything short of the ultimate franchise goal is, to some, a failure.

Or, you have people like me and a some others in this thread. Who, have the ability to be patient with mistakes, but only to a certain extent. I want this team to succeed as much or more than any other person here, but when you see the same pattern occurring over and over with no success you get tired of it. In my opinion the average fan is expected to want instant results and be satisfied with lateral moves that appear to give instant gratification. To me, however, it takes critical thinking and patience in development to grow a championship caliber team. Unless of course you have a winning culture, or ownership that is willing to spend millions into the Luxury tax.

I'm not saying winning a championship is easy, but the method to becoming a contender seems clear in its avenues. It's clear that you need a long-term blue print to how you are going to get there. Colangelo has shown no long-term plan year after year. That's what us fans are tired of, and this deal is the straw that broke the camel's back. We're not beating a dead horse, Colangelo is doing that.

[Saddler The Gr8]

The salary is only my secondary concern with this deal, but when you look at the players on this roster, and see that we could be in the luxury tax next year, it is cringe-worthy. I'd like at least 1 all-star if we're paying these guys so much $$$. I really hope Barfnani can be dealt

[Bramaca]

I am anything but a Yes Man. The Raptors landed the best player in the deal and have answered the teams biggest need in years. Rudy Gay is only 26 years old. Its not like we just landed a 34 year old Paul Pierce and we are building around that. At least give Gay a chance before writing him off completly.

What woud be your plan if you were GM? Would you tank? Would you build through the draft?

Don't portray everyone who thinks the deal is bad as haters then because it has about as much basis in truth as me calling you a Yes Man.

The Raps have done numerous trades over BC's tenure where they "landed the best player in the deal" but it doesn't result in anything other then the same results or losing assets. Isn't it reasonable to question another one of these trades when there are some question marks about compatability and how much of an impact player Gay actually is? Not to mention the financial hit which is a minor afterthought to me in comparison to the direction of the team.

[Bramaca]

Or, you have people like me and a some others in this thread. Who, have the ability to be patient with mistakes, but only to a certain extent. I want this team to succeed as much or more than any other person here, but when you see the same pattern occurring over and over with no success you get tired of it. In my opinion the average fan is expected to want instant results and be satisfied with lateral moves that appear to give instant gratification. To me, however, it takes critical thinking and patience in development to grow a championship caliber team. Unless of course you have a winning culture, or ownership that is willing to spend millions into the Luxury tax.

I'm not saying winning a championship is easy, but the method to becoming a contender seems clear in its avenues. It's clear that you need a long-term blue print to how you are going to get there. Colangelo has shown no long-term plan year after year. That's what us fans are tired of, and this deal is the straw that broke the camel's back. We're not beating a dead horse, Colangelo is doing that.

Good post

[magikmc]

Don't portray everyone who thinks the deal is bad as haters then because it has about as much basis in truth as me calling you a Yes Man.

The Raps have done numerous trades over BC's tenure where they "landed the best player in the deal" but it doesn't result in anything other then the same results or losing assets. Isn't it reasonable to question another one of these trades when there are some question marks about compatability and how much of an impact player Gay actually is? Not to mention the financial hit which is a minor afterthought to me in comparison to the direction of the team.

Exactly. Colangelo's philosophy is to stock pile assets and flip them for other assets and eventually it will work. I think it's completely reasonable to think that philosophy doesn't work from the body of work we have been given (which is an extended one).

[Mile High Champ]

Don't portray everyone who thinks the deal is bad as haters then because it has about as much basis in truth as me calling you a Yes Man.

The Raps have done numerous trades over BC's tenure where they "landed the best player in the deal" but it doesn't result in anything other then the same results or losing assets. Isn't it reasonable to question another one of these trades when there are some question marks about compatability and how much of an impact player Gay actually is? Not to mention the financial hit which is a minor afterthought to me in comparison to the direction of the team.

I just explained who I was calling a hater. It is fine if you don't like the trade but at least let other moves happen before getting frustrated with the overall direction of the team.You talk about compatability yet we don't have our full team going forward and you have yet to see anybody play together as a unit. What would you do as GM? I am curious.

[Bramaca]

I just explained who I was calling a hater. It is fine if you don't like the trade but at least let other moves happen before getting frustrated with the overall direction of the team.You talk about compatability yet we don't have our full team going forward and you have yet to see anybody play together as a unit. What would you do as GM? I am curious.

Thats sort of a cop out. There are always other moves that can happen so you are basically saying that an opinion can never be made about the direction of a team. There are 7 years of moves to make an opinion on BC's direction. When do you think it is enough to have an opinion on it? 10 years? 15 years?

[gwrighter]

Exactly. Colangelo's philosophy is to stock pile assets and flip them for other assets and eventually it will work. I think it's completely reasonable to think that philosophy doesn't work from the body of work we have been given (which is an extended one).

I don't know what else you would rather him do? Raps tanked and we got screwed out of the top 3 pick but luckily jonas fell to us at 5. He picked up a good coach when the time came. We under-performed last season and ended up trying to tank at the end again and got Ross who looks promising. We've stockpiled assets and flipped them for a top 10 PG and top 10 SF.