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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBulls4Life View Post
    Yes it happens here quite a bit unfortunately whether they want to admit it or not. personally I think shumpert is a good player as i mentioned earlier.
    Except that's not what happened at all
    See doogs post
    Quote Originally Posted by Doogolas View Post
    Iman Shumpert IS incredibly talented. That's true. He also may or may not be as good at defense as Jimmy. I don't know, I haven't seen enough of him. But I don't need to see anything from him to know this:

    He has no offensive game. None. That's not ME being unobjective, if you disagree that is your inability to be objective. Let's look at some numbers!

    We all know he's been awful from the field this year, and it's a super small sample size. So I am going to use last years numbers:

    40.2% from the field. That's livable if you do certain things well enough, like get to the line and hit free throws. Well, Shumpert is fine from the line, shoots about 80%. But here's the problem, he has a piss poor free throw rate. Don't confuse "free throw rate" with "free throws per game" last year his free throw rate was .20 (it's .15 this year) that is below average, league average is about .277. (Butler: 40.5/48.8, 77%/86%, .71/.43) All those are his last year/this year numbers for the various things listed. I'm sure you can place them).

    Let's look at how he did from the floor then! I'll use SG league averages for this, because it's obviously very different depending on position.

    At the rim he scores about 61.6% of the time and league average is about 64.3%, so we can call him average. (48.4/73.4)

    From 3-9 feet he shot 22.0% league average is about 38.6% and he just didn't take many there, let's call it Small Sample Size and say he's probably average from there, because let's be honest, it's 3-9 feet and he only took .8 attempts per game. (41.7/15.4 (only .3 attempts per game)

    10-15 feet: 28.1%. That is awful. The league average is 41.6% But hey, we can attribute that to small sample as well, I guess. He didn't take that many. (60%/40%)

    Finally, we have 16-23 feet, Shumpert hit about 36% of the time from that distance, which is just a shade below league average. (35%/38%)

    Now that we've taken a look at that, we can poke at Turnover rate, his is about 16%. League average? 10.1% (11.9/6.8)

    Offensive rebounding rate? 2.8% compared to the league average of 3%. (7.3/7.9)

    So ultimately, Shumpert is, in every aspect of offense, average-ish/slightly below average to bad.

    Literally in every single aspect. And it can all be summed up nicely by the following number:

    .485ts%. That is terrible. The league average is .53. (.526/.580)

    And you really don't want to bring up this year, because he's got a .360.

    So please don't tell me I'm not being objective. Compared to Shumpert, Butler is Michael Jordan offensively.

    Again, this doesn't take away from the fact that Shumpert is RIDICULOUSLY talented. He's a freak of nature athlete. But right now, Jimmy Butler is his superior in every conceivable way offensively and I don't know Shumpert's rate stats defensively, but I know he has a helluva reputation, so I imagine it's at worst pretty close to a wash on that side of the ball.
    Great post doogs

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogolas View Post
    Iman Shumpert IS incredibly talented. That's true. He also may or may not be as good at defense as Jimmy. I don't know, I haven't seen enough of him. But I don't need to see anything from him to know this:

    He has no offensive game. None. That's not ME being unobjective, if you disagree that is your inability to be objective. Let's look at some numbers!

    We all know he's been awful from the field this year, and it's a super small sample size. So I am going to use last years numbers:

    40.2% from the field. That's livable if you do certain things well enough, like get to the line and hit free throws. Well, Shumpert is fine from the line, shoots about 80%. But here's the problem, he has a piss poor free throw rate. Don't confuse "free throw rate" with "free throws per game" last year his free throw rate was .20 (it's .15 this year) that is below average, league average is about .277. (Butler: 40.5/48.8, 77%/86%, .71/.43) All those are his last year/this year numbers for the various things listed. I'm sure you can place them).

    Let's look at how he did from the floor then! I'll use SG league averages for this, because it's obviously very different depending on position.

    At the rim he scores about 61.6% of the time and league average is about 64.3%, so we can call him average. (48.4/73.4)

    From 3-9 feet he shot 22.0% league average is about 38.6% and he just didn't take many there, let's call it Small Sample Size and say he's probably average from there, because let's be honest, it's 3-9 feet and he only took .8 attempts per game. (41.7/15.4 (only .3 attempts per game)

    10-15 feet: 28.1%. That is awful. The league average is 41.6% But hey, we can attribute that to small sample as well, I guess. He didn't take that many. (60%/40%)

    Finally, we have 16-23 feet, Shumpert hit about 36% of the time from that distance, which is just a shade below league average. (35%/38%)

    Now that we've taken a look at that, we can poke at Turnover rate, his is about 16%. League average? 10.1% (11.9/6.8)

    Offensive rebounding rate? 2.8% compared to the league average of 3%. (7.3/7.9)

    So ultimately, Shumpert is, in every aspect of offense, average-ish/slightly below average to bad.

    Literally in every single aspect. And it can all be summed up nicely by the following number:

    .485ts%. That is terrible. The league average is .53. (.526/.580)

    And you really don't want to bring up this year, because he's got a .360.

    So please don't tell me I'm not being objective. Compared to Shumpert, Butler is Michael Jordan offensively.

    Again, this doesn't take away from the fact that Shumpert is RIDICULOUSLY talented. He's a freak of nature athlete. But right now, Jimmy Butler is his superior in every conceivable way offensively and I don't know Shumpert's rate stats defensively, but I know he has a helluva reputation, so I imagine it's at worst pretty close to a wash on that side of the ball.
    Fantastic stuff bro.

    #VoteRizzo... or else

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    Except that's not what happened at all
    See doogs post


    Great post doogs
    again, I don't have the time to spend looking up stats and stuff with so much other things going on. Hence I go off of what I see and hear a lot. Also I don't base my opinions purely off of stats as well. From what I've seen from him (which is more than most ppl on this bulls psd) he looks like he can hit the open shots and defend well. Remember he wasn't a good shooter coming into the nba so he does look improved. (I watched a decent amount of games from the knicks cuz I got some ny friends who watch them a lot).


    The thing is that somehow so many ppl here have the time to look up stats and everything and without even watching many games from other teams base opinons soley on that and come off in the wrong way to other ppl. That is frustrating to a lot of outside fanbases btw hence chicago fans aren't well liked. That's also y the ny fan here got frustrated and vented it on this thread randomly. It comes off as the way he says even if (idk if it's true or not) it wasn't meant in that way.
    Last edited by ChiBulls4Life; 01-29-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    Except that's not what happened at all
    See doogs post


    Great post doogs
    double post

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBulls4Life View Post
    again, I don't have the time to spend looking up stats and stuff with so much other things going on. Hence I go off of what I see and hear a lot. Also I don't base my opinions purely off of stats as well. From what I've seen from him (which is more than most ppl on this bulls psd) he looks like he can hit the open shots and defend well. Remember he wasn't a good shooter coming into the nba so he does look improved. (I watched a decent amount of games from the knicks cuz I got some ny friends who watch them a lot).
    Okay, I watch a decent amount of games myself, don't use TheLegend logic on me now

    The point is you made it seem like people were putting shumpert down... Personally I think shumpert is a good player, but he needs to improve a ton on the offensive side of the ball

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    Okay, I watch a decent amount of games myself, don't use TheLegend logic on me now

    The point is you made it seem like people were putting shumpert down... Personally I think shumpert is a good player, but he needs to improve a ton on the offensive side of the ball
    The nyk fan felt that way. I did not. my response to him was inferring that it comes off that way to other fanbases. Seriously, do you really think chicago fans are well liked by outside fan bases? There is a reason why as a whole chicago fans (esp. on here) are looked at as 'homers'. It's like stating that Rondo is overrated. I mean cuz he can't shoot well? idk what the reason is but it doesn't make sense and thus comes off as being a 'homer' or a 'hater' or whatever else is out there. I"m not saying shumpert doesn't need to improve as well either on offensive side of the ball.
    Last edited by ChiBulls4Life; 01-29-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  7. #22
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    Okay, so I bet money on daily fantasy NBA every single night

    I watch a ton of hours of NBA games... Even in that time I can't learn enough about the game to truly know everything... That's where stats come into play for me... I use my eyes a lot as well as advanced stats

    The reason Chicago fans are disliked is because Michael Jordan destroying their childhoods and the idiots of the fan base... Not the smart ones

  8. #23
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    Love the post Doogs, but Shumpert has, up to this point, played predominantly as a guard and is asked to do different things than Butler who has, in the same period, excelled as a winger - you can tell by glancing at any passing based metrics (AST, USG, etc.). That's not to excuse Shumpert's poor offensive production, less-than-stellar efficiency, or in any way indicative of his rebounding potential (again a factor of position as much as anything as guards are not regularly expected to crash boards).

    That's why I stand behind my reasoning to question the comparison in the first place - you can either have a winger who can play some guard or a guard who can play some winger, and I'm not sure either player is suited to change roles.

    I agree with most people here that if I were really pinned to a pick, I would grab Butler because an efficient winger is more important than a lock-down guard, but that's got less to do with the players than preference in role.
    Last edited by TopsyTurvy; 01-29-2013 at 03:34 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    Okay, so I bet money on daily fantasy NBA every single night

    I watch a ton of hours of NBA games... Even in that time I can't learn enough about the game to truly know everything... That's where stats come into play for me... I use my eyes a lot as well as advanced stats

    The reason Chicago fans are disliked is because Michael Jordan destroying their childhoods and the idiots of the fan base... Not the smart ones
    how does that destroy anyone's childhood? So fans are idiots if they feel otherwise? doesn't make sense.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBulls4Life View Post
    The nyk fan felt that way. I did not. my response to him was inferring that it comes off that way to other fanbases. Seriously, do you really think chicago fans are well liked by outside fan bases? There is a reason why as a whole chicago fans (esp. on here) are looked at as 'homers'. It's like stating that Rondo is overrated. I mean cuz he can't shoot well? idk what the reason is but it doesn't make sense and thus comes off as being a 'homer'.
    Rondo is overrated and it does make sense... Not a good shooter, immature, only shows up for nationally televised games, awful at the ft line for a guard especially, gambling defender who gets way too much respect on that side of the ball

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBulls4Life View Post
    how does that destroy anyone's childhood? So fans are idiots if they feel otherwise? doesn't make sense.
    What? The reason Chicago bulls fans are disliked is because in their childhood Michael Jordan destroyed their team

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    Rondo is overrated and it does make sense... Not a good shooter, immature, only shows up for nationally televised games, awful at the ft line for a guard especially, gambling defender who gets way too much respect on that side of the ball
    good for u to think that. I'm not going to agree with that (hence i posted about it a lil while back) and I'm sure many others don't agree with that. Does that make us idiots? make use blind 'homers' ? Make us wrong?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpro611 View Post
    What? The reason Chicago bulls fans are disliked is because in their childhood Michael Jordan destroyed their team
    I doubt that is the reason y. Chicago fans are in general (not including all of psd) are pretty clueless in what they say imo.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChiBulls4Life View Post
    The nyk fan felt that way. I did not. my response to him was inferring that it comes off that way to other fanbases. Seriously, do you really think chicago fans are well liked by outside fan bases? There is a reason why as a whole chicago fans (esp. on here) are looked at as 'homers'. It's like stating that Rondo is overrated. I mean cuz he can't shoot well? idk what the reason is but it doesn't make sense and thus comes off as being a 'homer' or a 'hater' or whatever else is out there. I"m not saying shumpert doesn't need to improve as well either on offensive side of the ball.
    rondo is overrated ,see what bagwell,corey or most other celtic fans say,they'll tell you the same thing.

    we arent well liked because we have one of the largest regional continents(if not the largest).and yes there are many homers that spammed the general board,or where/are hyper sensitive to any perceived criticism,your right.but that exists with every fanbase.but this has nothing to do with that and "not wanting to appear as a homer,getting a knick fan to like you" is not a good reason to not say the truth.shumpert isnt a good player,is offense is just so bad,maybe he'll improve one day ut as of right now thats the truth.its his problem that he doesnt like hearing it,not ours for stating it

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    Butler ***** all over Shumpert.

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