Jerry needs to do this!!!!!

[baazinakon]

really? thats what i said? choir boys? i want a team of gospel singers?

i think i said something more on the lines of,
i would rather go winless with good character, hardworking moral players, then win the superbowl with a team of drug addicts, rapist, murderers, and criminals.

does that sound a little more like what i said?

And yet you celebrate the Super Bowls that the Cowboys won in the 90s? Interesting...

That is your viewpoint, I respect it and just feel differently. I suppose I don't expect the same level of judgement, decision making, and stand up characters on a football team that I enjoy watching. I would rather accept some DUIs, some fights, some low level stuff and have a SB winning team.

[thedon01]

It is a poor judgement call to get behind the wheel intoxicated? Y/N?

Brent was drunk and the accident resulted in someone's death? Y/N?

He is still a Cowboy and the organization has yet to decide on his fate with the organization? Y/N?

Brown's Familly does not want the book thrown at Brent because they also see that it was a poor judgement call? Y/N?

I don't condone drinking and driving but I understand it is a lapse in judgement. I personally don't even drink. On the rare occasion that I do, maybe three times a year tops and I don't even get wasted, I definitely get a cab or someone else to drive.

Edit: Also, Ratliff did cause and accident. He was following his GPS and not paying attention, as many people do all the time. Neither Ratliff nor the driver of the 18 wheeler were injured.

Based on how you guys feel and the questions above regarding the Cowboys organizations' stance on Brent an Ratliff, you guys should no longer be Cowboys fans.

1. Yes if your implying the definition, no if your implying people don't understand it's a bad choice.

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Yes (but Browns family isn't the legislative branch of America.)

5. Why do you get a cab if you drank? Because you're obviously mature enough to realize the risks and consequences.

6. How you connect the dots to saying our opinions should disengage us from being Cowboys fans is so mind boggling that i'd ask if one of those 3 times a year you drink is today lol!

Did he kill or hurt anyone? If not why should I have to think about if it was me or somebody I know hurt by a drunk driver? Josh Brent is getting what he deserves because he killed a man and Ratliff didn't.

Going back to your theory on choices, that kid makes the choice to look at an athlete as a role model so therefore whatever happens to the kid is his choice. He can either chose to act like the NFL player who is a thug or he can do the opposite and be successful its his choice. A kid having a thug NFl player as a role model is no reason for the kid to act like a fool

1. Why should you think about the shoe on the other foot, because that's the basic idea of morality. Throughout your posts over this last week everything has been a double standard. If you believe something then everyone else is wrong if they think differently. You went as far as saying we are the problem with the cowboys. Seems like more deep seeded anger towards oneself.

2. If you don't see the double standard viewpoints you emphasize how or why do you think people will accept what your saying? if it was one of your loved ones involved in the accident I'm sure you would have blamed the anglo saxon law makers for not enforcing the law more diligently yet when you're not involved the rules should be different. Just review your past posts to show this.

3. Again what are you trying to argue in the last paragraph? what point are you trying to make? Because none of what you said has any connection to Jay Ratliff's poor choices leading to punishment.

Exactly which is why I asked them not to be hypocrites.

1. But aren't you being a hypocrite as well?

His posts imply squeaky clean and do no wrong types of individuals.

True, however when I was younger I never looked at athletes or other public figures as role models. I would think dang they can run fast jump high and all that. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs knows how to make money at all costs. It is up to kids and parents to filter and channel what is right and wrong, what should be admired and what should not.

I have never said it is acceptable, however I will accept some immoral actions by Cowboys players if it equals success. I will accept business owners doing immoral things to better their business. I will accept our government doing immoral things to better our Nation. So yes, don't be naive.

I cannot say what I would do or how I would feel, because thank God, I h en't had to deal with a situation like the one we are discussing. I can use Brown's Familly as an example and the way they are handling it conflicts with your argument.

1. doing the right thing, being respectful to others implies squeaky clean? Every human being likes to be treated nicely. It's part of human nature, but now it's a bad thing? So lets play off of that. If treating others how you want to be treated is wrong, then i'm sure you wouldn't mind if your employer underpaid you, your spouse cheated on you, the neighbor stole from you, and others disrespected and humiliated you on a daily basis. It works both ways.

2. I find it hard to believe that you never looked up to a celebrity. Never stuck your tongue out when playing basketball? Never pointed to the fence when up to bat, never quoted an athlete "Float like a Butterfly", never inspired to have the success portrayed everywhere you turn? You never dressed up for Halloween, never had a poster in your room, never played with toys, never had an imagination driven by something you saw, read, or heard? Come on now. It's a proven part of life that children always look up to someone they see as larger than life and many times it's multiple sources. It's part of what makes us human, now you're going to argue with me that it doesn't apply to you. Seriously?

3. Ask a parent in the 21st century how difficult it is to parent with all the influence around them. your surrounding influences your life. Another proven fact. The more negative influence the harder it is. Hence why i said in another post that upbringing for one person may be tougher than the another. But in this case a parent has a near impossible chance at raising a child immune to his or her surroundings when you can't escape what happens on the interior of society. In terms of hood vs suburb a person does have a choice to raise a child in said conditions.

4. Yes it's the parents job, but why make it harder for them? Would you want it to be harder on you?

5. Just clearly showed that the ends justify the means and this has been an age old debate. I think differently, and more times than not most American's agree with my stance. And if you look at it clearly you do too. You just don't see it right now.

6. You keep claiming me to be naive yet please illustrate a point at which i showed naivety? I'm one of the most level headed people in this forum.

7. The double standard comes into play when you say it's okay to act immoral and foolishly as long as you aren't directly affected. Then when directly affected the stance changes, which is what i asked you. So if you lost a loved one in an accident by a 32 year old man who knows the difference of right and wrong your stance of poor judgment would remain the same and you wouldn't want said person to be punished and or this sort of behavior reprimanded in society? Give MAD a call and ask them how they feel.

[thedon01]

Rawz shouldn't ask athletes to raise his kids, if he is a real man he does that and not depend on a 20 yr old.

you said you were college educated. How and when did Rawz ever say this and how and why do you thrive off of twisting words, denying facts, and implying things that are true when trying to debate your opinion.

It's very simple and any basic communication course would teach you this.

Step 1:
State your opinion

Step 2:
Define your opinion with facts

Step 3:
Listen to others and address with dignity

Step 4:
move on

[rawz]

either way its stupid to want a losing team just because they good guys...I assume you hate the dynasty we had in the 90's and love the crap we put out now huh? I think you became a fan in the 90's so you wouldn't rather have a team of good ole boys that get tossed like salad in prison.

im not sure i have what it takes to have a debate with you.

[thedon01]

I addressed your 1. in a previous post on this page.

Your .2 plays into what I was saying about people having to have a certain kind of mentality to succeed in sports, especially football and the NFL.

3. I was simply stating that if he were to come back and be a contributing factor to the Cowboys making it to the SB, as Stallworth was with the Patriots, I would expect that Rawz, would not be happy or celebrate making it to the SB, as the Cowboys as an organization did it, riding on the play of an individual with low moral character and a criminal, such as Ratliff.

I guess I should have left stupid out, but I was just saying that he is either being a hypocrite or stupid, in that he was unable to see or comprehend that he is being a hypocrite. Regardless, you are right and I should have left stupid out of it.

It may not have been in this thread, but he has made the statement that he would choose going winless with choir boys than winning SBs.

I believe in being ethical and teaching kids right or wrong, but I also believe in teaching them to interpret the information they get. I used Bill Gates as an example. He donates more to charities than just about anyone else in the world. He operates a legitimate company and is by all reports a good guy. He even sought out a homeless guy to try to repay him. He did and still operates his company in a vicious manner, cutting the competition and doing everything he can to prevent the competition from making moves that would threaten his company/profits. I also used President Lincoln as an example, who is regarded as being a figure head for doing what is right no matter the cost. Well he withheld information from Congress, lied to countless Congressmen and others, in addition to a host of other illegal things, for the betterment of our nation. Most very successful people have done some immoral things to get what they want or results they feel is best.

1. No you didn't you referenced adults and yourself which i don't believe to be true.

2. There's no connection between my number 2 (and i don't mean dung) has nothing to do with a certain type of mentality. Define more clearly.

3. I don't support morally ignorant people regardless of their accomplishments. Morality is the biggest component of my life and to think the ends justify the means is very sketchy in my book. Winning a SB is not more important than showing society the difference between right and wrong. Morality and life are bigger than football.

4. Can you show me when he said that?

5. Everyone has done something immoral. We do live in a fallen world, but that doesn't mean you seek out doing something immoral. Not to mention we live in a country governed by laws. People have to obey those laws or chaos ensues. Sure there is forgiveness and chances, but there's also the other side.

6. don't get me started on Gates!!!

[rawz]

gentleman, i think i have to bow down from this for a while..... thedon1, i know someone else said it before, but i am now a firm believer. IMO, you are the best debater that i have come across. i hate it when your against me, cause i know i cant win. but when we have a topic we both agree on.. its magical. your the micheal jordan of debates.

[thedon01]

either way its stupid to want a losing team just because they good guys...I assume you hate the dynasty we had in the 90's and love the crap we put out now huh? I think you became a fan in the 90's so you wouldn't rather have a team of good ole boys that get tossed like salad in prison.

Please someone show me when the crimes and immoral acts were committed!!!! Please i've asked numerous times and people keep talking about how the dynasty was filled with bad guys yet no one has once showed any examples of this.

And now it's stupid to have an opinion where you value ethics and morality over football? Do you have to resort to insults when losing a debate?

[thedon01]

gentleman, i think i have to bow down from this for a while..... thedon1, i know someone else said it before, but i am now a firm believer. IMO, you are the best debater that i have come across. i hate it when your against me, cause i know i cant win. but when we have a topic we both agree on.. its magical. your the micheal jordan of debates.

Very nice of you to say, but i've had my fair share of Bill Laimbeer moments too! We're definitely on the same side here!

[baazinakon]

6. Because the Cowboys are standing behind people who are guilty of actions you guys see as very severe, severe enough to not want them on the team. If the team keeps them, it is because the team thinks that they can play a part in the team having success. If morals and all that mean so much to you, this should be enough for you to write off the whole organization, not just the player.

How am I being a hypocrite? While I do not drink hardly ever anymore and certainly don't drink and drive, I have already admitted that in the past I have gotten behind the wheel when I was likely not fit to.

Celebrating when you knock a player out and recover the fumble isn't very respectful. Celebrating in the face of your opponent isn't very respectful. Talking **** during the game isn't very respectful. There are varying degrees of things in life and it comes down to tolerance.

I did look up to celebrities and all that, but I did so in a way. I did the Mutombo finger shake, the pointing, the tongue out, the flexing, etc., but again you are bringing that up in the context of sport. So you could do the all that in the context of sport, but that doesn't mean you have to go fight or murder someone or go snort some lines. Again it's all about how the child and/or individual takes the information in and what they do with it.

In my opinion, that is what is wrong with America in particular nowadays. Our parents are lazy, unbelievably lazy and pre-occupied with other things than taking the time to teach their children right from wrong and how to process information. This is, in my opinion, why we see so many troubled children doing crazy things now. They don't know how to interpret what they take in and what they should do with it. What is right, what is wrong and what is expected of them, are all things that should be instilled in them at a young age, so when they become young adults they are able to handle themselves in tough situations.

Naive in that sometimes moral character must be compromised to achieve success. Again it is just all about the context, extremes, and gains. See my examples of Gates and Lincoln.

I don't know how I would feel, because thank God, I haven't had to go through such a horrible situation, which is why I am referencing how Brown's family is reacting to the situation.

[blacknell]

hmmm Thadon well I threw that double standard in there because you have been doing it the whole time. By whole time i going back to our Ratliff DWI thread.

Now that I agree with you that everybody has a choice, why do you not agree with that now? You pointed out that everybody has a choice and nobody is putting a gun to the kids heads who look up to thuggish NFL players. So therefore based on your logic whatever happens to the kid as a result of looking up to a thug is their fault because they made the wrong choice.

So I think we both have our double standards because you as well believe if I don't see things your way i'm wrong. Don't put words in my mouth and try to twist anything I have said or how you think I feel. Show me where I have posted that if something doesn't happen to me then the rules should be different, don't assume anything on behalf. I will wait while you pull up the post where I say the laws should be different if it doesn't affect me.

[blacknell]

Please someone show me when the crimes and immoral acts were committed!!!! Please i've asked numerous times and people keep talking about how the dynasty was filled with bad guys yet no one has once showed any examples of this.

And now it's stupid to have an opinion where you value ethics and morality over football? Do you have to resort to insults when losing a debate?

I don't think i'm losing a debate here LOL because I don't agree with somebody is saying. Do you know what an insuult is? Thats the second time here you have tried to call somebody out on an insult when there was no insult.

If I was to insult somebody it would be like " Hey your a moron". Calling somebody a moron would be an insult. Me saying that I think an idea is stupid is not an insult. What makes you think you and rawz can question someone elses opinion but yours cant be challenged? Your opinions are not facts but are mere opinions that have no scientific evidence to back them.

[thedon01]

hmmm Thadon well I threw that double standard in there because you have been doing it the whole time. By whole time i going back to our Ratliff DWI thread.

Now that I agree with you that everybody has a choice, why do you not agree with that now? You pointed out that everybody has a choice and nobody is putting a gun to the kids heads who look up to thuggish NFL players. So therefore based on your logic whatever happens to the kid as a result of looking up to a thug is their fault because they made the wrong choice.

So I think we both have our double standards because you as well believe if I don't see things your way i'm wrong. Don't put words in my mouth and try to twist anything I have said or how you think I feel. Show me where I have posted that if something doesn't happen to me then the rules should be different, don't assume anything on behalf. I will wait while you pull up the post where I say the laws should be different if it doesn't affect me.

1. Let's get a couple things straight. You began this entire argument by insulting everyone who think differently that you do. your first post said it, go back and review it. It's in the ratliff thread. From that point on you dug yourself a grave on this subject.

2. If you understand the concept of double standard then please show when i displayed it.

3. Attacking my credibility when you're losing the debate doesn't help your cause.

4. How does your second paragraph have anything to do with the topic at hand?

5. See when you post something you claim it to be a fact and true and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong, stupid, vaginas, etc. Yet you never offer one single piece of evidence. It reminds of a 7 year old who doesn't get his way. Make your case stronger by offering solid facts. You'll see if i post an opinion i try my hardest to define why i have that opinion with factual evidence. How else do you attempt to make a point? Criticize and insults are for people who know they can't win.

6. the words in the mouth thing has been your MO for the past week and you want to see a double standard? You twist words yet get upset if and when someone does it to you. Yet please show me when i've twisted your words.

7. Do i really need to go back and make a case about your double standard viewpoints when you clearly admitted to it in the first sentence of your third paragraph? Would it make any difference? People already can read what's been said.

[thedon01]

I don't think i'm losing a debate here LOL because I don't agree with somebody is saying. Do you know what an insuult is? Thats the second time here you have tried to call somebody out on an insult when there was no insult.

If I was to insult somebody it would be like " Hey your a moron". Calling somebody a moron would be an insult. Me saying that I think an idea is stupid is not an insult. What makes you think you and rawz can question someone elses opinion but yours cant be challenged? Your opinions are not facts but are mere opinions that have no scientific evidence to back them.

Insulting someone's viewpoints and opinions is an insult. Please show me in our discussion when i've insulted you or your stance on the matter? Do i really need to go back and show you examples of your posts? Would it make a difference? Again people can read it, and they have a general opinion of the matter.

1. I posted facts to back up an opinion, you have not. I've asked you to, and you refuse to. = Failure.

2. Facts are facts and opinion is opinion. when an opinion is accompanied by multiple facts is that opinion no longer an opinion?

You can question all you want and i've rebutted you each and every step, exposing the fallacies and lack of evidence.

3. Now i've already posted laws, rules, facts etc and you refuse to accept that. see this is the trend.

People state opinion > i usually offer a rebuttal > i offer some facts > they deny them, refuse them, and ignore them > turn to insults, fallacies, and twisting of words > Thread gets closed.

That's not how to have a discussion. If you have a fact i'll gladly accept it. show it, prove it, offer it. Everytime i've asked about Jones running the boys and not johnson, or about the 90's team being full of thugs, or that upbringing is responsible for a trend of wrong choices i don't get anything in return.

[baazinakon]

1. No you didn't you referenced adults and yourself which i don't believe to be true.

2. There's no connection between my number 2 (and i don't mean dung) has nothing to do with a certain type of mentality. Define more clearly.

3. I don't support morally ignorant people regardless of their accomplishments. Morality is the biggest component of my life and to think the ends justify the means is very sketchy in my book. Winning a SB is not more important than showing society the difference between right and wrong. Morality and life are bigger than football.

4. Can you show me when he said that?

5. Everyone has done something immoral. We do live in a fallen world, but that doesn't mean you seek out doing something immoral. Not to mention we live in a country governed by laws. People have to obey those laws or chaos ensues. Sure there is forgiveness and chances, but there's also the other side.

6. don't get me started on Gates!!!

2. The mentality that "it won't happen to me" or "I am above or too good to be the rule, I am the exception" is a mentality that many top level athletes have, especially NFL athletes have. I am not too surprised that carries over into everyday life for them especially when taking their upbringing, education, etc., into account.

The rest I believe my other posts have covered, if not I can clarify and/or expand upon those as well.

[baazinakon]

Also, although an extremely small sample size, Rawz's thread in regards to Morals vs SBs in the NFL section of the forum shows that many value success to having the most absolutely morally sound players on their team. Most seem to want players of high moral character however will take some that make boneheaded mistakes and do illegal things, as long as the player is able to play and contribute to a SB.