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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Magoo View Post
    That number is a bit misleading. It assumes that no one on the current roster will replace them as starters. For example, on defense we're losing Devito, Thomas, Pace, Scott, Landry, and Bell. That's 6 starters who won't be on the roster, but it doesn't mean we only have 5 starters for next season. The reality is that Mo, Q, Ellis, Pouha, Harris, Davis, Wilson, Revis, and Cro are still on the roster, and at least 7 of them will be starting...if they go to a 4-3, then 8 of them will be starting. Then lock up Landry, and you've got at least 8 starters wth 2 or 3 holes that should be able to be filled through the draft and less expensive FA's.

    On offense, every starter is under contract except Woody, Bray, and Greene, but with Holmes returning and MM's offensive system we already have potential starters at every position except RG. A backup QB will be about $1-2MM, an O-Lineman and RB should be drafted, and with Holmes, Kerley, Hill, and Gates as the WR's, the team can easily afford to sign a WR. If they trade either Revis or Cro, they will get any combination of picks, WR, OLB, etc. I think they should give a look at Greg Jennings since he's most likely done in GB.
    I know that's why I said most of the these holes need to be filled. And even if you replace these guys with someone already on the roster you have to pay someone to replace that guy on the bench. Yes the number is a tad misleading but it's still an issue.

    You can't lock up Landry with the cap space we have. And who's woody? And isn't Keller a UFA this off-season? He'll probably be replaced by Cumberland though.

    But yeah they should definitely look into Jennings but he'll probably want to go somewhere with a better, established QB.

    Anyway it seems from the outside that we're in a pretty tough situation. It'll be interesting so see what Idzik does.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyjflightboy#10 View Post
    I know that's why I said most of the these holes need to be filled. And even if you replace these guys with someone already on the roster you have to pay someone to replace that guy on the bench. Yes the number is a tad misleading but it's still an issue.

    You can't lock up Landry with the cap space we have. And who's woody? And isn't Keller a UFA this off-season? He'll probably be replaced by Cumberland though.

    But yeah they should definitely look into Jennings but he'll probably want to go somewhere with a better, established QB.

    Anyway it seems from the outside that we're in a pretty tough situation. It'll be interesting so see what Idzik does.
    I meant Moore, not Woody.

    You're right about Keller, but I don't even consider him a starter any more. I think Cumberland finally started to look like a legit TE in the second half of the year, and he blocks better than Keller. Then Reuland is probably going to be around, and who the hell was that big Australian kid who played at the end of the year? He was like 6'7. That's a big boy, if he can block and catch a little, I think the team could be set at the position for at least 2-3 years.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by afmanic View Post
    The Jets are currently in the red @ $19.5M. Get rid of Scott, Pace, Jason Smith, Eric Smith, and Pioha. you are roughly @ $11M under. I dont know if they can do enough with that considering they have to pay other guys.

    I want to see who restructures their contract to keep a guy who has held out 2 twice and you havent gone to the big game yet.

    I would be very surprised if Sanchez stepped up and said he would restructure his contract in order to sign Revis. You know Holmes wont.

    It's a mess but Idzik says its not that bad. He knows better than me.

    We will see
    Restructuring doesn't mean giving up money. A lot of the time, it means getting your season's salary up front as a signing bonus so that the money is spread out through the life of the deal instead of heaped on to one year.

    Guys like Holmes and Sanchez can be CUT next year.

    Candidates would be Harris, Brick and Mangold.
    Quote Originally Posted by nyjflightboy#10 View Post
    And apparently that's with only 10 or 11 starters under contract. We need to fill most of these spots with cheap talent that's not already on the roster. So we have to cut more salary and/or stock up on drafts. So trading one of our only two assets would help accomplish this. Keeping both Cro and Revis would prohibit this from happening. I don't get why people can't grasp this.
    That number, if and when it did go up, wouldn't be until next year. Not to mention if you give the guy 15 mil that doesn't mean his cap hit will be 15 mil. I don't even think trading Revis saves more than a marginal amount this season.

    Next season they have 96 committed and could save 30 some odd million from Holmes, Sanchez and Scott. Pouha has like a 7 million dollar hit too.

    If you do trade Cro, it doesn't need to be this off-season. And, if for some reason he is, you don't need to trade him until you have a FA about to sign on the dotted line. Opportunity cost- yes we can spend that money at other positions but we don't know that'll be a worthwhile expense until the market takes shape.

    I still get that you can spend the 15 million somewhere else -- and obviously 25 mill for two corners is premium -- but what I've been trying to get at is the Jets could easily end up trading Revis and walking into 2014 with 15+ mil in cap space. Or worse, that money could go to a worthless player. These are two of the only guys we get our money's worth from, even though we have to pay them both.

    Guys like this are difficult to acquire, doesn't always take just available money and draft picks. If it did, the pro bowl would be Dallas vs. Washington every year.
    Last edited by Sandman; 01-28-2013 at 07:19 PM.

  4. #64
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    Although it is true that Antonio Cromartie had his best season as a Jet in 2012 - his accolades, and those of our "#2 ranked" pass defense, should be tempered with the knowledge that we played some bad teams/bad QBs (almost synonymous) in the second half of the season, on top of which, there were a number of games that teams had jumped out to a good lead, and teams didn't need to pass as much, and we were relatively easy to run on (I hate that most of all - got to stop the run!).

    Don't get me wrong, I love the way Cromartie stepped it up this year. He showed some heart, and commitment that I didn't think he had in him. The "but...." part of that is - his value has not been perceived to be this high since 2007, and you have to admit, he isn't exactly the picture of consistency (his effort has been known to suck), so I think we should trade Cromartie, and make every reasonable effort to sign Revis so that his entire career is as a Jet.

    The really BAD PART OF THIS IS - once we trade Cromartie, Revis's bargaining position goes way up (and he's already showing signs of being unreasonable by the numbers he's floating out there) although Jet Nation has shown tons of love to Revis - that won't count for a penny at the bargaining table - which is why he really shouldn't be catered to, and we should get as much as we can for him.

    Arrrggghhhhhh! This is a very "sticky wicket" (oh wait, that's cricket), A.K.A. - it is a difficult decision, and one that will get hung around Idzik's neck - for better (KOW), or worse. I'm hoping that Woody hired the right man, and he will make the best choice possible, which, to be frank (never say "to be honest with you" because that implies that you usually aren't honest), I don't know what is best, and only time will tell.

    GO JETS!!!

    GO JETS!!!

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by afmanic View Post
    The Jets are currently in the red @ $19.5M. Get rid of Scott, Pace, Jason Smith, Eric Smith, and Pioha. you are roughly @ $11M under. I dont know if they can do enough with that considering they have to pay other guys.
    I think you can also count on the 1.5 Milion saved if, when, you cut Tebow. Also, based on the Jets cap website i have us Under at 16.45 roughly. Im not saying im right, idk who to trust but thats just what i saw, if you include Tebow.

    It says: Smith-12 Pace-8.5 Bart-7.15 Sione-3.8 Smith-3 Tebow 1.5. =35.95--> 36-19.5=16.45under. but these numbers are probably wrong so dont worry about this its not my point.

    My thoughts on Revis have changed in the past few days. I think its best if we can pay one of them fully to make them happy and trade the other for extra cap sapce to pay the other/get other guys. Im not sure how how the trade market would be for Cromartie but hes coming off his best year so that has to be something. If we could pry a #2 Id be stunned. And if we can get that other team to take as much money as humanly possible (im not sure what cromarties contract looks like. all i do know, is that his cap# this year is 10.7mil) i would take a 3. I dont want to give him up at anything less than that. But that should allow us to pay revis what he deserves. Hes a year younger. And after that, we just hope his knee holds up.

  6. #66
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    Trade cro or revis preferably cro but if revis wants 12+ a year from the jets then he obviously doesnt want to retire a jet and isnt about the team improving. 10-12mil im sure is top db money and he is worth more, just not in the jets current state. Cro's value couldnt be better. Showed his true #1 db talent and if the jets could get a ideal 1st or 2nd with a starter that would be great. Although a 2nd or starter 3rd/4th might be realistic. Hope that allows the jets to resign Landry.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverquit11611 View Post
    Trade cro or revis preferably cro but if revis wants 12+ a year from the jets then he obviously doesnt want to retire a jet and isnt about the team improving. 10-12mil im sure is top db money and he is worth more, just not in the jets current state. Cro's value couldnt be better. Showed his true #1 db talent and if the jets could get a ideal 1st or 2nd with a starter that would be great. Although a 2nd or starter 3rd/4th might be realistic. Hope that allows the jets to resign Landry.
    Even if you pay Revis 15 million per year in a re-sign, it is still short-term beneficial to trade Cro.

    Cro saves you 8.25 million this year in a trade.

    Based on how Revis's new deal would be prorated his cap hit could actually be lower than his scheduled 9 million, which could mean even more savings on the 2013 cap.

    After the obvious cuts, we could end up with over $20 million in cap space ($11 million after cuts + $8.25 million from Cro trade + Revis deal based on proration), which would give us a way more realistic chance of keeping Landry and filling out our roster in a manner in which we will be able to compete instead of having to tank 2013.

    If you trade Revis, you take an additional 3 million hit for a total of 12 million cap hit on the 2013 salary cap, which would cut our suggested $11 million in space (after obvious cuts of Pace, Scott, etc) down to $8 million, making our offseason even harder to deal with.

    Futhermore, in 2014 you still have to account for $9 million on the cap without Revis even being on the team because of the structure of his previous contract. I equate this to egg on our face because he would be long gone if you traded him, yet he's still affecting your ability to improve.

    Essentially, if you trade Revis, you commit to rebuilding from scratch and tanking 2013 because of the cap situation and you won't be free of paying him until after 2014.

    If you re-sign Revis and trade Cro, you will be able to compete this year and make the playoffs. Even if Revis signs for some ludicrous amount. So essentially you have to determine, if you want to try and get back on the horse and win considering Brick, Mangold, Holmes, and Harris are all 28ish. Or do you say screw the next 2-3 years and allow those guys to get on the wrong-side of 30.

    Ultimately, I have faith in Idzik to negotiate Revis down to at least 14 million if not 13 million. When you look at the cap implications stated above and previously by others, it just makes more sense to keep Revis a Jet.

    The whole key to paying Revis that much is what JF67 was talking about in positional value. You have to determine how many dollars you want to spend on both your starting corners. Let's say that max figure is $18 million, which would be the price of having 2 bottom end top 10 corners. Then that means with Revis eating $14 million of that, you have $4 million to spend on your other starting corner. Wilson will make $2 million this year. So that means the starters would combine to make $16 million, which is less than what you allotted for both corners.

    So essentially if you give Revis a mega-deal, we just have to cycle the #2 corner with a cheap player. I think the best way to go about this would be to just make sure we always grab a corner in the draft somewhere. Obviously not round 1 or even 2 most years, unless let's say we are loosing our #2 to free agency, but always grab a guy we can coach up and cycle in because for instance when Wilson becomes a free agent, I doubt he re-signs for a small enough amount to keep us within our positional value for the 2 starters at corner.
    Last edited by NYJetsfan69; 01-30-2013 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYJetsfan69 View Post
    Even if you pay Revis 15 million per year in a re-sign, it is still short-term beneficial to trade Cro.

    Cro saves you 8.25 million this year in a trade.

    Based on how Revis's new deal would be prorated his cap hit could actually be lower than his scheduled 9 million, which could mean even more savings on the 2013 cap.

    After the obvious cuts, we could end up with over $20 million in cap space ($11 million after cuts + $8.25 million from Cro trade + Revis deal based on proration), which would give us a way more realistic chance of keeping Landry and filling out our roster in a manner in which we will be able to compete instead of having to tank 2013.

    If you trade Revis, you take an additional 3 million hit for a total of 12 million cap hit on the 2013 salary cap, which would cut our suggested $11 million in space (after obvious cuts of Pace, Scott, etc) down to $8 million, making our offseason even harder to deal with.

    Futhermore, in 2014 you still have to account for $9 million on the cap without Revis even being on the team because of the structure of his previous contract. I equate this to egg on our face because he would be long gone if you traded him, yet he's still affecting your ability to improve.

    Essentially, if you trade Revis, you commit to rebuilding from scratch and tanking 2013 because of the cap situation and you won't be free of paying him until after 2014.

    If you re-sign Revis and trade Cro, you will be able to compete this year and make the playoffs. Even if Revis signs for some ludicrous amount. So essentially you have to determine, if you want to try and get back on the horse and win considering Brick, Mangold, Holmes, and Harris are all 28ish. Or do you say screw the next 2-3 years and allow those guys to get on the wrong-side of 30.

    Ultimately, I have faith in Idzik to negotiate Revis down to at least 14 million if not 13 million. When you look at the cap implications stated above and previously by others, it just makes more sense to keep Revis a Jet.

    The whole key to paying Revis that much is what JF67 was talking about in positional value. You have to determine how many dollars you want to spend on both your starting corners. Let's say that max figure is $18 million, which would be the price of having 2 bottom end top 10 corners. Then that means with Revis eating $14 million of that, you have $4 million to spend on your other starting corner. Wilson will make $2 million this year. So that means the starters would combine to make $16 million, which is less than what you allotted for both corners.

    So essentially if you give Revis a mega-deal, we just have to cycle the #2 corner with a cheap player. I think the best way to go about this would be to just make sure we always grab a corner in the draft somewhere. Obviously not round 1 or even 2 most years, unless let's say we are loosing our #2 to free agency, but always grab a guy we can coach up and cycle in because for instance when Wilson becomes a free agent, I doubt he re-signs for a small enough amount to keep us within our positional value for the 2 starters at corner.
    I love your cap related posts. Thanks for your insight.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYJetsfan69 View Post
    The whole key to paying Revis that much is what JF67 was talking about in positional value. You have to determine how many dollars you want to spend on both your starting corners. Let's say that max figure is $18 million, which would be the price of having 2 bottom end top 10 corners. Then that means with Revis eating $14 million of that, you have $4 million to spend on your other starting corner. Wilson will make $2 million this year. So that means the starters would combine to make $16 million, which is less than what you allotted for both corners.

    So essentially if you give Revis a mega-deal, we just have to cycle the #2 corner with a cheap player. I think the best way to go about this would be to just make sure we always grab a corner in the draft somewhere. Obviously not round 1 or even 2 most years, unless let's say we are loosing our #2 to free agency, but always grab a guy we can coach up and cycle in because for instance when Wilson becomes a free agent, I doubt he re-signs for a small enough amount to keep us within our positional value for the 2 starters at corner.
    You can't pre determine that. Without knowing what options will be available in FA orthe draft you could be giving up an impact player without getting one in return. Can't trade these guys in for store credit. Works great in theory but tell me what pass rusher you're about to sign for 8.5 mil or whatever else.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    You can't pre determine that. Without knowing what options will be available in FA orthe draft you could be giving up an impact player without getting one in return. Can't trade these guys in for store credit. Works great in theory but tell me what pass rusher you're about to sign for 8.5 mil or whatever else.
    Based on your team's system and identity, you should be able to mark out what positions you value the most and then be able to spend accordingly. That's part of the problem with our cap mismanagement is that we got locked on keeping all the stars we could.

    For instance, I point to the Holmes situation. We supposedly were a ground and pound team at that time, so why did we value paying a WR who wasn't exactly putting up elite numbers $9-10 million per year. Also, Holmes didn't block. We should have gone with the cheaper alternative in Braylon, who also happens to block.

    The way you split your pay roll should be based on your team's identity. Occasionally, you may have an elite player in a position that is not necessarily the most important, so you compensate if its reasonable. If not, move on.

    Look at how the Texans just let Mario Williams go. They made an attempt to keep him, but realized he truly didn't fit a 3-4 and moved on. Look at what we did with Vilma. We gave him a try in a 3-4, it didn't work out, so we moved him and he was a great 4-3 MLB for the Saints and our shift to a 3-4, I'd say has overall been a success.

    You come up with a general a structure for your team's identity and it aids in making tough decisions. Unlike Tannenbaum's approach where he was getting caught up in the moment.

    In response to your pass rusher statement, we aren't going to get one in free agency. The only guys worth signing in FA are guys like Peppers or Williams and there aren't guys like that available every year. (Yes I know those guys are 4-3 guys, but the point is we'd want a guy of their caliber who fits a 3-4.) You don't want to overspend for potential or one-year wonders looking to cash in. We fell subject to this by giving 8 million a year to Calvin Pace. While he was a good player for us, he was not worth 8 million a year. A better framework and understanding of positional value, which I believe Idzik has, will prevent us from making boneheaded moves such as overvaluing players like Holmes and Pace. As where when Tanny had $40 million to play with in FA, he spent on every star or potential star he could find and didn't care what it cost.

    You can't trade these guys in for store credit, but when they are signed to smart contracts and you are more aware of when their contracts are over, you can be better prepared to replace them. And this should be done through the draft, not trading away 2 picks for 1 or 2 year rentals. When you draft a player, you get 4 years out of them with minimal money commitment. Thus, it is easier to swap those players out. When you spend big, make sure it counts, meaning the player is great and fits your system, ex: Revis.
    Last edited by NYJetsfan69; 01-31-2013 at 12:52 AM.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYJetsfan69 View Post
    Based on your team's system and identity, you should be able to mark out what positions you value the most and then be able to spend accordingly. That's part of the problem with our cap mismanagement is that we got locked on keeping all the stars we could.

    For instance, I point to the Holmes situation. We supposedly were a ground and pound team at that time, so why did we value paying a WR who wasn't exactly putting up elite numbers $9-10 million per year. Also, Holmes didn't block. We should have gone with the cheaper alternative in Braylon, who also happens to block.

    The way you split your pay roll should be based on your team's identity. Occasionally, you may have an elite player in a position that is not necessarily the most important, so you compensate if its reasonable. If not, move on.

    Look at how the Texans just let Mario Williams go. They made an attempt to keep him, but realized he truly didn't fit a 3-4 and moved on. Look at what we did with Vilma. We gave him a try in a 3-4, it didn't work out, so we moved him and he was a great 4-3 MLB for the Saints and our shift to a 3-4, I'd say has overall been a success.

    You come up with a general a structure for your team's identity and it aids in making tough decisions. Unlike Tannenbaum's approach where he was getting caught up in the moment.

    In response to your pass rusher statement, we aren't going to get one in free agency. The only guys worth signing in FA are guys like Peppers or Williams and there aren't guys like that available every year. (Yes I know those guys are 4-3 guys, but the point is we'd want a guy of their caliber who fits a 3-4.) You don't want to overspend for potential or one-year wonders looking to cash in. We fell subject to this by giving 8 million a year to Calvin Pace. While he was a good player for us, he was not worth 8 million a year. A better framework and understanding of positional value, which I believe Idzik has, will prevent us from making boneheaded moves such as overvaluing players like Holmes and Pace. As where when Tanny had $40 million to play with in FA, he spent on every star or potential star he could find and didn't care what it cost.

    You can't trade these guys in for store credit, but when they are signed to smart contracts and you are more aware of when their contracts are over, you can be better prepared to replace them. And this should be done through the draft, not trading away 2 picks for 1 or 2 year rentals. When you draft a player, you get 4 years out of them with minimal money commitment. Thus, it is easier to swap those players out. When you spend big, make sure it counts, meaning the player is great and fits your system, ex: Revis.
    How about Connor Barwin? Before they moved him to the left side in 2012, he registered 11 1/2 sacks in 2011. It was unnecessary for them to draft Mercilus and place him in Barwin's position after that season. Stupid, actually. He could slide into the pass rushing spot and wa-la, we have a pass rusher. I think they could afford him with all the roster cuts we'll be making. Just a thought.

    And I think this Revis trade talk should come to and end when we all know the team cannot take another cap hit of 12M this season. They need to get players to actually suit up and play after these cuts. I don't see how Revis can possibly be traded this season.
    Last edited by John X Doe; 01-31-2013 at 09:09 AM.

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    Cromartie is worth a 2nd and a conditional pick IMO after the season he had....I agree with a lot of the other posters who said that the cap hit from trading Revis wouldn't make it a bad move.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Imwithstupid View Post
    Cromartie is worth a 2nd and a conditional pick IMO after the season he had....I agree with a lot of the other posters who said that the cap hit from trading Revis wouldn't make it a bad move.
    I'm with stupid on this one.


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymation View Post
    I'm with stupid on this one.

    That's awesome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymation View Post
    I'm with stupid on this one.
    I've asked you not to call me that.
    Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.
    -Sun Tzu

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