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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnIckFaN.2883 View Post
    I think our lineup should look like this

    felton
    Shumpert
    Copeland
    Melo
    Chandler

    second unit
    Kidd
    Jr
    Brewer
    Kurt
    Amare

    novak and pablo coming in as needed.
    This.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dankster View Post
    The whole "Melo at the 4 argument" to me is useless. He hasn't changed his game really that much at all from last year (well, maybe he's taking a higher clip of 3 point shots this year.) His shot is just falling in with more frequency, and this year when he passes out of a double team he has far better options than Landry Fields or Toney Douglas out there hanging out in the perimeter.

    Carmelo and Kevin to me are the next evolution of basketball players in this league. Same with Lebron, although to me he's more versatile than the other 2 guys. Carmelo doesn't have a true position; he's a hybrid in every sense of the word. To me he causes a mismatch against anyone on the court, regardless of whose guarding him.I hate using cliche's, but Carmelo is essentially the only person that can contain himself (i.e. getting frustrated in-game) especially when he's feeling it from the perimeter. My point is Carmelo HAVING to start at the 4 is a pointless debate, it's not like the opposing 4 will ALWAYS be guarding him throughout the game and vice versa. It takes several different looks by several different opposing defenders throughout the game to slow Melo down.

    Teams usually start with their best perimeter defender on Melo, when they recognize Melo can bully them down low or blow by them at will, they switch to bigger guys who face basically the same conundrum. The guy isn't playing that much differently than last year, he just has a much more balance and well-assembled roster around him that plays well into his talent/skillset.

    Stoudemire and Tyson coexisting is where the problem truly lies. Stat has already exhibited a wide array of offensive moves in his return except his midrange shot. The guy used to have such an automatic midrange game for over a half decade, I believe the only Power Forward in the league with a better shot than his is Nowitzki. It's looked terrible since last season for whatever reason (health injuries, personal issues, etc.,) but if it does come back to form we should just play Melo and Stat on opposite elbows and give Felton the luxury of either working the PnR with TC, the PnR with Stat, the pick n pop with Stat or post play with Stat or Melo. That's 5 viable options Felton has when starting the game.

    We need Stats production to start the game. Can't continue excavating ourselves in these deep holes and expect to comeback from possible double digit deficits. We've had 1st quarter scoring issues for over a month now, and putting that much burden on Melo to get 10+ points every 1st quarter is unfair. Really there's no question to me Amar'e should start, he'll feast on the majority of starting PF's in this league like he has the majority of his career. And now, the guys defense is exponentially better than it ever was, him just putting forth effort on a nightly basis on that side of the floor is still such a shock to me. Stat can really help relieve a lot of pressure that Melo has to deal with to start games off.
    Been saying this for a long time but people keep spreading the same nonsense that Melo is a better 4 (despite the fact that teams almost exclusively guard him with 3s, he can't guard big 4s, and when he was killin it Ronnie Brewer was the one "stretching the floor" which is no better than Stat stretching the floor.

    The only reason Amar'e shouldn't start is if Woody really won't play him more than 30 minutes ever again - which seems crazy. Amar'e has been great so far and I actually think him and Melo work well together. Amar'e can good timing on cuts to the basket when Melo is iso on the wing and there should be more and more layups and dunks to be had given the attention that Melo gets. With Felton back I would expect Amar'e to get even better on O and I think he is really committed to getting better on D and giving some effort on the boards and even boxing out.

    I also think that the big Chandler and Amar'e issue has not been as bad so far this year. In this offense there is plenty of opportunity for both to run p&r, which is different than what D'Antoni asked Amar'e to do which was play a perimeter game.

    Either way I'm for Amar'e back starting - but I would still have him be the first out of the game and bring him back when Melo goes out (essentially the same rotation with the 2nd unit but you start the game with him. With the awful starts to games we have I can't say that this team doesn't need a change because it seems like we start ever game in a hole.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dankster View Post
    The whole "Melo at the 4 argument" to me is useless. He hasn't changed his game really that much at all from last year (well, maybe he's taking a higher clip of 3 point shots this year.) His shot is just falling in with more frequency, and this year when he passes out of a double team he has far better options than Landry Fields or Toney Douglas out there hanging out in the perimeter.

    Carmelo and Kevin to me are the next evolution of basketball players in this league. Same with Lebron, although to me he's more versatile than the other 2 guys. Carmelo doesn't have a true position; he's a hybrid in every sense of the word. To me he causes a mismatch against anyone on the court, regardless of whose guarding him.I hate using cliche's, but Carmelo is essentially the only person that can contain himself (i.e. getting frustrated in-game) especially when he's feeling it from the perimeter. My point is Carmelo HAVING to start at the 4 is a pointless debate, it's not like the opposing 4 will ALWAYS be guarding him throughout the game and vice versa. It takes several different looks by several different opposing defenders throughout the game to slow Melo down.

    Teams usually start with their best perimeter defender on Melo, when they recognize Melo can bully them down low or blow by them at will, they switch to bigger guys who face basically the same conundrum. The guy isn't playing that much differently than last year, he just has a much more balance and well-assembled roster around him that plays well into his talent/skillset.

    Stoudemire and Tyson coexisting is where the problem truly lies. Stat has already exhibited a wide array of offensive moves in his return except his midrange shot. The guy used to have such an automatic midrange game for over a half decade, I believe the only Power Forward in the league with a better shot than his is Nowitzki. It's looked terrible since last season for whatever reason (health injuries, personal issues, etc.,) but if it does come back to form we should just play Melo and Stat on opposite elbows and give Felton the luxury of either working the PnR with TC, the PnR with Stat, the pick n pop with Stat or post play with Stat or Melo. That's 5 viable options Felton has when starting the game.

    We need Stats production to start the game. Can't continue excavating ourselves in these deep holes and expect to comeback from possible double digit deficits. We've had 1st quarter scoring issues for over a month now, and putting that much burden on Melo to get 10+ points every 1st quarter is unfair. Really there's no question to me Amar'e should start, he'll feast on the majority of starting PF's in this league like he has the majority of his career. And now, the guys defense is exponentially better than it ever was, him just putting forth effort on a nightly basis on that side of the floor is still such a shock to me. Stat can really help relieve a lot of pressure that Melo has to deal with to start games off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dankster View Post
    ^^Sorry for the essay I wrote. I'm just starting to come to the realization that the excuses for why Stoudemire SHOULDN'T be starting are wearing thin. It doesn't matter if it's backup PF's or starting PF's he's dealing with, he's always been an offensive juggernaut and very efficient and feasts on opposing big men in general. He keeps playing with this type of effort defensively, I c don't see how he's not a much better option to start games off with than White, Copeland or Kurt Thomas.

    And lastly, everyone always speaks about Novaks value on the floor because his defender has to stay on him at all times. How about a perennial All Star on the floor to start games off like Stat? I'd imagine it'll minimize the amount of times Melo gets doubled and triple teamed to start off games.

    The excuses are running out of why Stat shouldn't start and very strong cases can be made of his importance for this team to get off to good starts to begin games. If he keeps playing with this defensive effort, and he gets his jumper back, he'll be an All Star again. Plain and simple.
    Quote Originally Posted by NYY 26 to 7 View Post
    Been saying this for a long time but people keep spreading the same nonsense that Melo is a better 4 (despite the fact that teams almost exclusively guard him with 3s, he can't guard big 4s, and when he was killin it Ronnie Brewer was the one "stretching the floor" which is no better than Stat stretching the floor.

    The only reason Amar'e shouldn't start is if Woody really won't play him more than 30 minutes ever again - which seems crazy. Amar'e has been great so far and I actually think him and Melo work well together. Amar'e can good timing on cuts to the basket when Melo is iso on the wing and there should be more and more layups and dunks to be had given the attention that Melo gets. With Felton back I would expect Amar'e to get even better on O and I think he is really committed to getting better on D and giving some effort on the boards and even boxing out.

    I also think that the big Chandler and Amar'e issue has not been as bad so far this year. In this offense there is plenty of opportunity for both to run p&r, which is different than what D'Antoni asked Amar'e to do which was play a perimeter game.

    Either way I'm for Amar'e back starting - but I would still have him be the first out of the game and bring him back when Melo goes out (essentially the same rotation with the 2nd unit but you start the game with him. With the awful starts to games we have I can't say that this team doesn't need a change because it seems like we start ever game in a hole.



    PREACH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dankster View Post
    ^^Sorry for the essay I wrote. I'm just starting to come to the realization that the excuses for why Stoudemire SHOULDN'T be starting are wearing thin. It doesn't matter if it's backup PF's or starting PF's he's dealing with, he's always been an offensive juggernaut and very efficient and feasts on opposing big men in general. He keeps playing with this type of effort defensively, I c don't see how he's not a much better option to start games off with than White, Copeland or Kurt Thomas.

    And lastly, everyone always speaks about Novaks value on the floor because his defender has to stay on him at all times. How about a perennial All Star on the floor to start games off like Stat? I'd imagine it'll minimize the amount of times Melo gets doubled and triple teamed to start off games.

    The excuses are running out of why Stat shouldn't start and very strong cases can be made of his importance for this team to get off to good starts to begin games. If he keeps playing with this defensive effort, and he gets his jumper back, he'll be an All Star again. Plain and simple.
    I don't agree with this notion at all. During the ATL game they were doubling Melo everytime down the stretch with ease, and they were doubling with Horford who I believe was guarding STAT. STAT isn't parked at the 3 point line so that means you can double off him and still get back in time, because your distance to get back is half the distance it would take to close out to Novak, so you can help deeper and closer to Melo and still get back with ease.

    Spero and Clyde said it a ton of times down the stretch and noted how much the floor opened up once Novak came in for the last possession or 2, and ATL could no longer double. Result? Melo drove on Novaks side for a and-1 to seal the deal.

    What happened when Melo was getting doubled with STAT in the game? He was forcing passes to STAT with no space or angle and turned it over twice in crucial moments (both not STATs fault, but it was a result of lack of spacing - Melo shouldn't have passed it either time).

    Put it this way, with STAT in the game instead of Novak, your distance to help is cut in half. 3 key guys and their defenders are all parked around the key/elbow/low block.

    Not saying STAT is worse for this team than Novak, needs less minutes than Novak etc...But the spacing with those 3 is still a real issue.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I don't agree with this notion at all. During the ATL game they were doubling Melo everytime down the stretch with ease, and they were doubling with Horford who I believe was guarding STAT. STAT isn't parked at the 3 point line so that means you can double off him and still get back in time, because your distance to get back is half the distance it would take to close out to Novak, so you can help deeper and closer to Melo and still get back with ease.

    Spero and Clyde said it a ton of times down the stretch and noted how much the floor opened up once Novak came in for the last possession or 2, and ATL could no longer double. Result? Melo drove on Novaks side for a and-1 to seal the deal.

    What happened when Melo was getting doubled with STAT in the game? He was forcing passes to STAT with no space or angle and turned it over twice in crucial moments (both not STATs fault, but it was a result of lack of spacing - Melo shouldn't have passed it either time).

    Put it this way, with STAT in the game instead of Novak, your distance to help is cut in half. 3 key guys and their defenders are all parked around the key/elbow/low block.

    Not saying STAT is worse for this team than Novak, needs less minutes than Novak etc...But the spacing with those 3 is still a real issue.
    I know what you mean.. I am starting to think.. Down the stretch.. Especially in the final 2 minutes.. You go offense defense.. Novak for Tyson... On Offense... You play Amare Melo at the 4 and 5.. On D.. You go big with Amare, Melo, Tyson.

    What do you think?.. I think that give Melo the space to create.. And it allows Amar'e to be the primary pick and roll go on O.. One bad thing is.. You will miss Tysons offensive rebound/tip outs.. Amare has been hitting the offensive glass pretty well as of late.. But I dunno.. Thoughts?.

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    ^ I still think NOvak's presence on the court is a bit overstated because of his lack of adjustment offensively. Granted at this point it's an effective tool because opposing defenders still have to guard him out to the 3 point line. But if Stoudemire shows he still has his jumper, he can stretch opposing defenders out to 18 feet with no problem. And in his situation, the majority of the opposing defenders that guard Stat normally don't like going out into the perimeter to defend. In Novak's case, it's almost always a wing defender on him, so they're in their comfort zone defending him at all times.

    If Novak is cloaked on the perimeter, he's useless. He can't penetrate on opposing defenders, he can barely dribble the ball and he obviously can't get his shot off of the dribble. Stoudemire is an incredibly versatile scorer who can pick and pop, pick and roll, shoot off the curl and find imaginative ways to get fouled.

    If Stat can stretch the defense out to 18 feet with that midrange game that made him a 1st team all NBA player, it can solve our spacing issues immensely. It's only about a 3-4 foot difference compared to what Novak provides. People usually never lose their jumpers when they're as automatic as Stat's used to be, it's usually one of the last things to go from one's arsenal. He hasn't shown he has the jumper yet this year, but than again all of his buckets have come from post play, putbacks and broken plays.
    Last edited by Dankster; 01-29-2013 at 02:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EnWhyKay View Post
    I know what you mean.. I am starting to think.. Down the stretch.. Especially in the final 2 minutes.. You go offense defense.. Novak for Tyson... On Offense... You play Amare Melo at the 4 and 5.. On D.. You go big with Amare, Melo, Tyson.

    What do you think?.. I think that give Melo the space to create.. And it allows Amar'e to be the primary pick and roll go on O.. One bad thing is.. You will miss Tysons offensive rebound/tip outs.. Amare has been hitting the offensive glass pretty well as of late.. But I dunno.. Thoughts?.

    Well down the stretch Woodson has been doing that.


    Also, this team should play better with Melo at the 4. He truly can play the position. Provide an interior mid/low post presence allowing the team to work inside out. And he does defend the post well. Sure there are some mismatches against him defensively, but not a lot. Like i wouldn't even feel bad placing him against KG or Bosh for long stretches without doubles, because he does a fine job defending off the ball to help deny bigger guys the lower positioning that would actually get him in trouble. If they have to put the ball on the ground 10 ft away from the basket he has the advantage.

    And it is true that Melo is usually defended by the other team's best perimeter defender. But going small on the offensive end makes it more likely that teams will switch on pick and rolls and allow him to get the bigs on the switch. And even if he doesn't play vs a big offensively, it can result in someone else having a mismatch. Shumpert vs Humphries is a big advantage to the Knicks. Eventually as Shump continues to get comfortable, they will be matchup nightmares offensively.

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    Yet since Amar'e Stoudemire's return from injury on New Year's Day, Woodson is putting him on the court with Carmelo Anthony more than everó74% of Stoudemire's total minutes. Predictably, the results have been worse, too.

    In Stoudemire's 199 minutes on the hardwood with Anthony, the Knicks are being outscored by 4.4 points per 100 possessions. In his 70 minutes without Anthony, the Knicks perform significantly better, though they are still outscored by 0.6 points per 100 possessions. When just playing Anthony this season, the Knicks outscore opponents by 6.1 points/100 possessions.

    Their poor chemistry has been a factor in the Knicks playing just .500 ball in the 12 games since Stoudemire was activated. In their other 30 games, the Knicks are 21-9. This isn't all due to Stoudemire's return, but it is also true that the duo has never been dynamic while sharing the ball. Last year, the Knicks with Stoudemire and Anthony were outscored by 3.3 points/100 possessions.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...170155862.html

    I think Woodson is doing the right thing.

    Gives him flexibility that if the "Big Front line" doesn't work with everyone back, he can move towards separating the players with Stat off the bench.

    I think in the long run Stat's better there as a scoring punch against the other teams back ups. Just need to get Melo going again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anji View Post
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...170155862.html

    I think Woodson is doing the right thing.

    Gives him flexibility that if the "Big Front line" doesn't work with everyone back, he can move towards separating the players with Stat off the bench.

    I think in the long run Stat's better there as a scoring punch against the other teams back ups. Just need to get Melo going again.
    Those Metrics are flawed.. Thats the thing.. This argument needs to be put to bed.. Becuase the 2 have been playing much better together... On offense.. Now with Felton back I expect that trend to continue..

    The issue is on D.. On D both Melo and Amare are below average defenders.. We cant afford to have both the offense and defense be a work in progress.. We should be able to rely on our D while we figure things out offensively..

    The Heat was able to thrive when they were gelling due to outstanding D.. We need to pay attention to the defensive end when both guys are on the court more than offense.. I think in time the offense will take care of itself but if they cant stop anybody what will it matter?..

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    Quote Originally Posted by EnWhyKay View Post
    I know what you mean.. I am starting to think.. Down the stretch.. Especially in the final 2 minutes.. You go offense defense.. Novak for Tyson... On Offense... You play Amare Melo at the 4 and 5.. On D.. You go big with Amare, Melo, Tyson.

    What do you think?.. I think that give Melo the space to create.. And it allows Amar'e to be the primary pick and roll go on O.. One bad thing is.. You will miss Tysons offensive rebound/tip outs.. Amare has been hitting the offensive glass pretty well as of late.. But I dunno.. Thoughts?.
    IDK man, offensively I think you NEED Tyson for his putbacks, especially when the game is down to 1 or 2 final possessions. Its an interesting scenario, but I don't see Tyson coming out on either end.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dankster View Post
    ^ I still think NOvak's presence on the court is a bit overstated because of his lack of adjustment offensively. Granted at this point it's an effective tool because opposing defenders still have to guard him out to the 3 point line. But if Stoudemire shows he still has his jumper, he can stretch opposing defenders out to 18 feet with no problem. And in his situation, the majority of the opposing defenders that guard Stat normally don't like going out into the perimeter to defend. In Novak's case, it's almost always a wing defender on him, so they're in their comfort zone defending him at all times.

    If Novak is cloaked on the perimeter, he's useless. He can't penetrate on opposing defenders, he can barely dribble the ball and he obviously can't get his shot off of the dribble. Stoudemire is an incredibly versatile scorer who can pick and pop, pick and roll, shoot off the curl and find imaginative ways to get fouled.

    If Stat can stretch the defense out to 18 feet with that midrange game that made him a 1st team all NBA player, it can solve our spacing issues immensely. It's only about a 3-4 foot difference compared to what Novak provides. People usually never lose their jumpers when they're as automatic as Stat's used to be, it's usually one of the last things to go from one's arsenal. He hasn't shown he has the jumper yet this year, but than again all of his buckets have come from post play, putbacks and broken plays.
    I think his presence on the perimeter is overrated over the course of a 48 minute game.

    When that 48 minute game is down to 1 minute, and there are two possessions left, that spacing is critical for Melo to seal the deal. To me, the final possessions of the ATL game proved that.

    Novaks spacing is very real, I agree when hes bottled up for 48 minutes it becomes overstated, but when you micromanage the final two possessions it has shown to be key, especially when its a given Melo is taking that shot. Your not doubling Melo with JR and Novak/Kidd on the floor. We saw what happened against BK when they doubled with 3 point shooters, Kidd burned them.

    With Amare in the game late, they flashed Horford to Melo's side of the floor every single possession. With Amare out for the final possession, they didn't even attempt to double Melo and he won the game for us.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

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    Quote Originally Posted by EnWhyKay View Post
    Those Metrics are flawed.. Thats the thing.. This argument needs to be put to bed.. Becuase the 2 have been playing much better together... On offense.. Now with Felton back I expect that trend to continue..

    The issue is on D.. On D both Melo and Amare are below average defenders.. We cant afford to have both the offense and defense be a work in progress.. We should be able to rely on our D while we figure things out offensively..

    The Heat was able to thrive when they were gelling due to outstanding D.. We need to pay attention to the defensive end when both guys are on the court more than offense.. I think in time the offense will take care of itself but if they cant stop anybody what will it matter?..
    It's inclusive, which why I think Woody is doing the right thing.

    He is playing them together 75% of Stats time. If it doesn't work, Woody has an out to continue to use Stat off the bench if the team is still being out scored with the two of them out their together.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D-Leethal View Post
    I don't agree with this notion at all. During the ATL game they were doubling Melo everytime down the stretch with ease, and they were doubling with Horford who I believe was guarding STAT. STAT isn't parked at the 3 point line so that means you can double off him and still get back in time, because your distance to get back is half the distance it would take to close out to Novak, so you can help deeper and closer to Melo and still get back with ease.

    Spero and Clyde said it a ton of times down the stretch and noted how much the floor opened up once Novak came in for the last possession or 2, and ATL could no longer double. Result? Melo drove on Novaks side for a and-1 to seal the deal.

    What happened when Melo was getting doubled with STAT in the game? He was forcing passes to STAT with no space or angle and turned it over twice in crucial moments (both not STATs fault, but it was a result of lack of spacing - Melo shouldn't have passed it either time).

    Put it this way, with STAT in the game instead of Novak, your distance to help is cut in half. 3 key guys and their defenders are all parked around the key/elbow/low block.

    Not saying STAT is worse for this team than Novak, needs less minutes than Novak etc...But the spacing with those 3 is still a real issue.
    When teams double Melo it isn't black and white. Novak definitely spreads the floor but when you have a 4 on 3 you have to impose your will on a team. You stuff it down their throats!!! Forget shooting 3 point bombs all day long. Its good when they are going down but what do you do when they aren't? Melo getting doubled is exactly what we want and exactly why we have a scorer of STAT's caliber on our team. You can flash any of the 2 big men to the FT line when Melo gets doubled and they either get a wide open 12 footer or you can play the high-low game. If they clog that up you still have an extra player somewhere on the perimeter.

    Bottom line... Melo has to hit the right man when he gets doubled. He cant force it. I'd always take the dunk or easy layup rather than swing it to Novak and hope that he's on that game.



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    If the knicks pick up henry sims and he becomes a regular in the rotation.

    first unit
    Felton
    Shumpert
    Copeland
    Melo
    Chandler

    Second Unit

    Kidd
    J.R.
    Brewer
    STAT
    Sims
    with novak and pablo coming in as needed.I would cut Kurt if need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EnWhyKay View Post
    I know what you mean.. I am starting to think.. Down the stretch.. Especially in the final 2 minutes.. You go offense defense.. Novak for Tyson... On Offense... You play Amare Melo at the 4 and 5.. On D.. You go big with Amare, Melo, Tyson.

    What do you think?.. I think that give Melo the space to create.. And it allows Amar'e to be the primary pick and roll go on O.. One bad thing is.. You will miss Tysons offensive rebound/tip outs.. Amare has been hitting the offensive glass pretty well as of late.. But I dunno.. Thoughts?.
    You know what, I just rewatched that final play and Novak actually WAS subbed for Tyson. Smith, Novak, STAT all on the opposite side doing some decoy curl screen that never materialized before Melo got the and 1, and Melo cleared out on his side with Felton.
    The value of elite scoring ability, by Phil Jackson:

    "This is a guy, we recognize his talent, and his skill is the kind of skill and talent that gets you through playoff games where things get sticky, grind-out, and basketball becomes a force game and suddenly you need to have a player who has the capabilities of scoring with someone hanging on them in a situation thatís critical. Heís one of those players, one of the few players who can do that.Ē

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