Ranking the Greatest Leafs Ever-Project Discussion

[LuckyLuke2]

And to round out my top ten I put Komisarek and Grabovski there.

[LuckyLuke2]

Your literally off your rocker.

Wendel Clark was a role player, a very good role player but a role player. Sundin wasn't such an outspoken guy but he was pretty damn revered in the locker room. Teammates love him and he won the Messier award for leadership for a reason. The guy wasn't a loud guy but he led by examples and was a damn good professional. Your logic would also apply to Nicklas lidstrom and I would damn well take Lidstrom over Clark or any other so called loud leader. Lidstrom for example is a hell of a better defenseman than Scott Stevens (a hall of famer unlike Clark) despite the difference in leadership style. Some of the greatest players ever are quiet, doesn't make them wrose.

If you would seriously in a franchise draft take Wendel Clark who is likely not one of the top 250 (and this is generous) position players of all time instead of Sundin who is clearly in the top 100, you've lost it and really are a bad evaluator of players.




Also, your cheating a bit with Gilmour. Sundin vs Gilmour's overall careers is a good discussion but Sundin played way longer at a high level as a Leaf than Gilmour.

You're saying Wendel Clark has nowhere being in a top 250 greatest players list? Dude you're off your mind.

[jrice9]

Greatest Leaf ever was Wendel Clark HANDS DOWN.

I won't insult anyone who disagrees with that but at the same time he brought everything an amazing leader, hockey player and person needs to bring to a team. Grit, Hands, attitude, will to win, etc. He fought, he hit all that jazz.

Wendel Clark is my clear cut #1. Other great Leafs include Gilmour, Sitler, Salming, Sundin, Bower, Keon etc.

Borje Salming and Mats Sundin and Gilmour's prime and Sittler are on a different level than Clark.

Clark is a fan favourite. That's fine but it doesn't make him the greatest Maple Leaf or close.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...l=&order_by=ps

Wendel Clark according to point shares provided the 32nd most value to the Maple Leafs during his career among position players. This is despite the fact that he played the 16th most games and should have played more but was incredibly injury prone.

People ***** about Lupul's injuries. Clark could never play a whole season.

EDIT: Before you dismiss point shares, read what it stands for.

Secondly, Clark clearly wasn't that good. He had alot of bad and injury prone seasons in perhaps the greatest offensive era of all time.

There's a reason that trading Clark for Sundin is viewed as perhaps the greatst trade in the franchise's history

[LuckyLuke2]

Injury prone because he scored 30 goals and put up more then 150 PIM's. What NHLer today does that? Not many. And BTW his stop wasn't brief lol he played for Toronto for 12 years.

[jrice9]

You're saying Wendel Clark has nowhere being in a top 250 greatest players list? Dude you're off your mind.

I'll list you you them.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

Is it the end all be all? No but I'd take the vast majority of these guys (Some of whom happened before 1967 before Clark).

Wendel Clark has done a tremendous job building a legacy and he's a fun player but was he ever better than Milan Lucic is right now?

[LuckyLuke2]

I'll list you you them.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/friv/ratings.cgi

Is it the end all be all? No but I'd take the vast majority of these guys (Some of whom happened before 1967 before Clark).

Wendel Clark has done a tremendous job building a legacy and he's a fun player but was he ever better than Milan Lucic is right now?

Lol dude come on... are you serious? Comparing Lucic to Clark is nuts. You think Lucic can steadily put up more then 150 PIM's every single year and score anywhere from 20-35 goals? Clark in his first two years with Toronto had 30 plus goals and 200 PIM's. That's insane.

Yeah he missed games but he was incredible. To answer your question yeah by far.

[jrice9]

Lol dude come on... are you serious? Comparing Lucic to Clark is nuts. You think Lucic can steadily put up more then 150 PIM's every single year and score anywhere from 20-35 goals? Clark in his first two years with Toronto had 30 plus goals and 200 PIM's. That's insane.

Yeah he missed games but he was incredible. To answer your question yeah by far.

He played in a more offensive era. Scoring 30+ goals was a hell of alot easier and more common.

Also since when are PIM's a good thing? When you get PIM's your in the box and not helping your team? If its not a fighting PIM, you in fact put your team short handed, the worst situation in hockey (Besides 5-3).

Lucic has done back to back 25-30 goal years in a much harder era (60 points) and isn't injury prone.

[Lavy16]

Your literally off your rocker.

Wendel Clark was a role player, a very good role player but a role player. Sundin wasn't such an outspoken guy but he was pretty damn revered in the locker room. Teammates love him and he won the Messier award for leadership for a reason. The guy wasn't a loud guy but he led by examples and was a damn good professional. Your logic would also apply to Nicklas lidstrom and I would damn well take Lidstrom over Clark or any other so called loud leader. Lidstrom for example is a hell of a better defenseman than Scott Stevens (a hall of famer unlike Clark) despite the difference in leadership style. Some of the greatest players ever are quiet, doesn't make them wrose.

If you would seriously in a franchise draft take Wendel Clark who is likely not one of the top 250 (and this is generous) position players of all time instead of Sundin who is clearly in the top 100, you've lost it and really are a bad evaluator of players.




Also, your cheating a bit with Gilmour. Sundin vs Gilmour's overall careers is a good discussion but Sundin played way longer at a high level as a Leaf than Gilmour.

Doug Gilmour played almost 100 more playoff games than Sundin. Gilmour is a winner. Gilmour is over a PPG in the playoffs over that time. You can evalute players based on career stats (Sundin played a long time and never won anything) or use your advanced stats that don't work for hockey, but I'll take Gilmour over Sundin 7 days a week. I'd take Clark too over Sundin. I want players on my team who show emotion and lead by example. Wendel Clarke to me is what being a Canadian hockey player is all about.

[jrice9]

Doug Gilmour played almost 100 more playoff games than Sundin. Gilmour is a winner. Gilmour is over a PPG in the playoffs over that time. You can evalute players based on career stats (Sundin played a long time and never won anything) or use your advanced stats that don't work for hockey, but I'll take Gilmour over Sundin 7 days a week. I'd take Clark too over Sundin. I want players on my team who show emotion and lead by example. Wendel Clarke to me is what being a Canadian hockey player is all about.

You do realize playoff games depend on teams. Gilmour got to be on great teams. He was a large part of them but he was on great teams. Sundin wasn't.

I think Gilmour is likely a better player than Sundin but its a close matchup.

Lol at them being advanced stats. None of these things are advanced stats. Adjusting for playing in the 1980's is the correct way of doing things. if you read what Point Shares or adjusted stastistics are you would realize their not advanced.

Is a player putting up 95 points in 2003-2004 the same as putting it up in 1985-1986?

I'd take Clark too over Sundin. I want players on my team who show emotion and lead by example. Wendel Clarke to me is what being a Canadian hockey player is all about.

This quote demonstrates your utter lack of hockey knowledge on this particular topic it seems to me. This is a Don Cherry level statement.

[KingerSox]

Wendel Clark "All Heart" baby.

[Lavy16]

Lol dude come on... are you serious? Comparing Lucic to Clark is nuts. You think Lucic can steadily put up more then 150 PIM's every single year and score anywhere from 20-35 goals? Clark in his first two years with Toronto had 30 plus goals and 200 PIM's. That's insane.

Yeah he missed games but he was incredible. To answer your question yeah by far.

That's like saying the Clark - McSorley fight was 2 heavy weights fighting...Clark was around 190lbs when he played and McSorley was 250lbs (not to mention McSorley was an inch to 2 taller)

[KingerSox]

As great as Sundin was we never got anywhere with him. A loss in the 99 Conference Finals and a loss in the 02 Conference Finals in which he had no hand in getting us to as he was injured in the 1st or 2nd game of the first round vs the Islanders. Bottom line is whether you're a Sundin guy or a Clark Gilmour guy it's completely pathetic that all we have as a fan base are 4 teams that got to Conference Finals and lost. That's the extent of what we can celebrate. Little disheartening.

[jrice9]

If you want to make a favourite players to watch team/award or fan favourite award/team, sure Wendel Clark leads alot of lists.

No doubt about that. But just because your a fan favourite doesn't make you great.

Tie Domi was a fan favourite, that doesn't make him better than Tomas Kaberle

[Lavy16]

You do realize playoff games depend on teams. Gilmour got to be on great teams. He was a large part of them but he was on great teams. Sundin wasn't.

I think Gilmour is likely a better player than Sundin but its a close matchup.

Lol at them being advanced stats. None of these things are advanced stats. Adjusting for playing in the 1980's is the correct way of doing things. if you read what Point Shares or adjusted stastistics are you would realize their not advanced.

Is a player putting up 95 points in 2003-2004 the same as putting it up in 1985-1986?


This quote demonstrates your utter lack of hockey knowledge on this particular topic it seems to me. This is a Don Cherry level statement.

Or maybe Gilmour was the reason teams were great...he was the heart and sole of a Leafs team that took the city by storm and almost made the Cup finals...Gilmour was a competitor...he wanted to win

[KingerSox]

Being a fan favorite does make you great. Great in the hearts of the fan base which is the most important part. You can do a list of statistical greats and a list of fan favorite greats and the overall truth lies somewhere in the middle. Both are equally important. The Tie Domi thing... ughh.. guy played what 5 minutes a night? Not much of a Wendel Clark comparison to made there. Apples and oranges outside of the fact they both fought and threw hits.