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Thread: Baseball Myths

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    I don't think protection means the hitter in front of a good hitter is always going to have better numbers than if he were in front of a bad hitter. I think protection means the hitter is going to be pitched to differently. there are too many other factors that can lead to the results.
    I'm not going to waste my time trying to find evidence because regardless of what I find it's not going to be good enough, and wont change anyone's mind.
    everyone has to know pitchers are machines and all the time are only concerned with the hitter at the plate, and will never allow themselves to ever even give a thought to the hitter that could be up next.
    Somebody already gave you counter evidence. Pitch selection, types of pitches, and location. How is this not evidence for you?

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    I don't think protection means the hitter in front of a good hitter is always going to have better numbers than if he were in front of a bad hitter. I think protection means the hitter is going to be pitched to differently. there are too many other factors that can lead to the results.
    I'm not going to waste my time trying to find evidence because regardless of what I find it's not going to be good enough, and wont change anyone's mind.
    everyone has to know pitchers are machines and all the time are only concerned with the hitter at the plate, and will never allow themselves to ever even give a thought to the hitter that could be up next.
    How many times does it have to be posted that this does not happen?

    It's been repeatedly shown that these guys are not pitched any differently.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadeKobe View Post
    But that isn't the entire discussion of protection. That's the problem I have here. And I'm on the side of those who say protection doesn't exist. But an incomplete conversation is still an incomplete conversation.

    The fact is that within the "Protection Myth" is the idea that if I stick Albert Pujols behind Frank Thomas in their primes, you can't pitch around Frank and IBB him, because now you just stuck a guy on for Albert Pujols. If I stick Robin Ventura behind Frank Thomas in their prime... well, maybe you can IBB Frank.

    You cannot use the "when they are trying to get them out" because it ignores situations (which matter) where the pticher isn't going to try to get them out when, if a different batter were batting behind them, they might have tried to get them out.

    The data is incomplete without IBB, because situations matter, especially in protection conversation.

    If the effect of IBB in those situations is insignificant, then show that statistically and say that. Don't ignore it.
    What Guppy had to say.

    It comes down to the arguments people create.

    Miggy will do better this year because Prince Fielder is there to protect him.

    Well he didn't, and he wasn't going to because of Prince. If he was going to do better, it's because he was going to do it himself and improve.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    What Guppy had to say.

    It comes down to the arguments people create.

    Miggy will do better this year because Prince Fielder is there to protect him.

    Well he didn't, and he wasn't going to because of Prince. If he was going to do better, it's because he was going to do it himself and improve.
    I gotcha.

  5. #395
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    just a thought.
    couldn't 99% of all lineups be evidence of lineup protection? all your regular #3 hitters are going to be followed by regular #4 hitters. managers will almost always come up with a lineup where your #3 and #4 hitters are good hitters. that's the managers job, to come up with a lineup where each hitter is protected by someone else.
    what would happen if the Milwaukee Brewers decided they were going to bat Ryan Braun 3rd, followed by the pitchers spot. wouldn't Braun see more walks in this type of situation?
    but the thing is no manager is going to do that, so there would never be any statistical evidence.
    the difference between your #3 hitter to your #4 hitter to your #5 hitter isn't noticeable enough to make a difference.
    any 1% of the time when for some reason a manager comes up with a different lineup, it's such a small sample size, and any results in small sample size could be because of other factors.

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  6. #396
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    Lineup construction is based on number of PA and RBI opportunities. You want your High on base guys first, and your power hitters second.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheezombie View Post
    Lineup construction is based on number of PA and RBI opportunities. You want your High on base guys first, and your power hitters second.
    You actually want your best hitters in this order: 4,1,2,5,3,6,7,8,9
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    just a thought.
    couldn't 99% of all lineups be evidence of lineup protection? all your regular #3 hitters are going to be followed by regular #4 hitters. managers will almost always come up with a lineup where your #3 and #4 hitters are good hitters. that's the managers job, to come up with a lineup where each hitter is protected by someone else.
    what would happen if the Milwaukee Brewers decided they were going to bat Ryan Braun 3rd, followed by the pitchers spot. wouldn't Braun see more walks in this type of situation?
    but the thing is no manager is going to do that, so there would never be any statistical evidence.
    the difference between your #3 hitter to your #4 hitter to your #5 hitter isn't noticeable enough to make a difference.
    any 1% of the time when for some reason a manager comes up with a different lineup, it's such a small sample size, and any results in small sample size could be because of other factors.
    100% of lineups are a way to maximize players in a position where their hits will help the most. It's not about "line up protection". The reason Pujols bats number 3 or 4 isn't to protect someone, it's to put Albert Pujols in the best situations for the team. Just like there's a reason the pitcher doesn't hit directly infront of the best player. In that world, he'd then get the best "protection" which would then maximize him as your worst hitter, no? According to you, pitchers would be so fearful of, lets go with Pujols still despite him playing in the AL (just play along with me), Pujols that they'd **** up, throw better pitches for the pitcher to hit, and thus maximize his ability to get on base. But is he truly the hitter you want getting the 2nd or 3rd most ab's on the team? No. He bats last because he sucks (well, in a perfect world he'd bat 8th, but lets not turn this into a lineup fight).

    This is just grasping at straws.

    Face it; your argument is a sinking (sunk...but hey, who's counting?) ship. You've presented information that has been refuted. You've then claimed that you weren't going to do anything more because we'd just refute that (hey, that's what you do in a debate!). Now you've gone to grasping at lineup construction straws to continue your argument, but it's pretty clear that lineup construction isn't to maximize "protection", it's to maximize players in situations. Not to mention, even if that was the case, it'd be the wrong way of lineup construction (as many studies have gone to show what the best type of construction would thus be).
    #ClutchTime

  9. #399
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    I said I was done looking up statistics, that would take forever to find.

    this is still a form of protection to me. your better hitters are grouped together. they're all protecting each other.
    or call it whatever you want.

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  10. #400
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    Now you are just grasping at straws and changing your arguments.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  11. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    You actually want your best hitters in this order: 4,1,2,5,3,6,7,8,9
    Yes I know.

  12. #402
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    K, well that's not what you said lol.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  13. #403
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    ohhh my argument has to stay the same.
    I didn't know I had to follow a set of rules and have my argument remain the same.

    that's not grasping at anything. you can call it what you want. it might not be the typical form of what people refer to as "protection". but to me when all your better hitters are grouped together, that can be a form of protecting each other too. you're protecting your lineup from the opposing pitcher being able to have a better advantage. if a lineup was put together differently where your better hitters were not grouped together, then the opposing pitcher would have a better chance at pitching to them more effectively.

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  14. #404
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    You are Acting like that was your point the whole time, and it clearly wasn't. You have abandoned your original argument and are now searching for something to use. That is grasping.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  15. #405
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    I wasn't able to find any evidence arguing before, and even when I did find an example of what looked like protection, that was picked all apart.
    in searching on google I found a website that suggested that when a lineup is put together so that the better hitters are grouped together, that that itself is a form of protection since the better hitters are protecting each other. it might not be the same form of "protection" that has been talked about, but this still sounds like a form of "protection" to me.

    EDIT: and for what it's worth. is the argument about protection being a myth only referring to the way the game is played today, or that protection has never ever happened in baseball.

    Velvet Sky. hottest woman in wrestling

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