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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I'm not sure that you have read my posts very well if this is how you think that I post/feel.

    I point out the gun nuts who shoot people but certainly do not equate people who enjoy shooting or want to protect themselves with them. Of course there are abortion nuts but I must say that I don't know of any killing anyone with their support of abortion rights.

    I actually have a positive view of the tea party (as a whole). There are wackos but I also think there are wackos in the Occupy Movement and have said as such.

    O'Reilly, Rush, Gore, and Moore are all idiots...again I've said this on numerous occasions.

    Jackson, Sharpton, and Rangel are also idiots...this too I have said.

    Bain and Acorn are not even close to the same thing so I don't see how they are comparable. Bain was in the business of making money and Acorn was (they are no longer an organization) in the business of registering voters. To my knowledge, Bain AND Acorn are not guilty of any crimes, I know Acorn was exonerated and I can't say anything about Bain.

    The GOP made themselves look foolish by going after Hilary in the way they did. They forgot their experience with her in the Senate apparently. As far as the Democrats standing up against a GOP president's policies I can't defend other than to say that the numbers are off the charts since 2008 in the number of nominations put under threat of filibuster.

    I'm never going to defend (or would I have voted for) Byrd or Kennedy.

    Clinton's lack of faith to his wife was terrible and I don't think it speaks well of his character but that certainly doesn't make Newt's actions defendable. I believe that their shared lack of fidelity was a strong bond for the two.

    But this entire debate is counter-productive. Are you expecting me to claim that the GOP are all saints because the Democrats did the same thing? Or are you willing to admit that the GOP are fraudulent *******s as well as the Democrats? If we get into these stupid false equivalencies guess who wins? And it's not you and me...
    I'm not sure he was responding directly to u but that was very good post. I will say that i'be never seen a pro choice nut. I've seen anti abortion folks scream at girls from the sidewalk in fidget temperature and its disgusting.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I'm not sure he was responding directly to u but that was very good post. I will say that i'be never seen a pro choice nut. I've seen anti abortion folks scream at girls from the sidewalk in fidget temperature and its disgusting.
    Right after my post he says " This is why it is nearly impossible to have any sort of discussion/argument with people like you". So it seems to me that he was talking to me.

    I'm never going to absolve the Democrats of the blame for this mess we are in but on the other hand I'm not going to concede that this is fully a two-sided problem in all respects.

    Specifically to the gerrymandering issue, it definitely doesn't seem like a bipartisan problem. The two states that are most notable for their ideological leanings can serve as great examples:

    California - Commission consists of 5 Republicans, 5 Democrats, and 4 Independents. Government Auditors select 8 members from a pool of 60 voters, then the first 8 commission members selected can make picks on the remaining selections.

    Texas - Commission consists of Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, Comptroller, Land Commissioner, and House Majority Leader.

    Source: Ballotpedia.org

    Which one of those groups of people sounds like it consists of partisan hackery and which one sounds like a bipartisan group that will be more likely to prevent partisan hackery.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I'm not sure that you have read my posts very well if this is how you think that I post/feel.

    I point out the gun nuts who shoot people but certainly do not equate people who enjoy shooting or want to protect themselves with them. Of course there are abortion nuts but I must say that I don't know of any killing anyone with their support of abortion rights.

    I actually have a positive view of the tea party (as a whole). There are wackos but I also think there are wackos in the Occupy Movement and have said as such.

    O'Reilly, Rush, Gore, and Moore are all idiots...again I've said this on numerous occasions.

    Jackson, Sharpton, and Rangel are also idiots...this too I have said.

    Bain and Acorn are not even close to the same thing so I don't see how they are comparable. Bain was in the business of making money and Acorn was (they are no longer an organization) in the business of registering voters. To my knowledge, Bain AND Acorn are not guilty of any crimes, I know Acorn was exonerated and I can't say anything about Bain.

    The GOP made themselves look foolish by going after Hilary in the way they did. They forgot their experience with her in the Senate apparently. As far as the Democrats standing up against a GOP president's policies I can't defend other than to say that the numbers are off the charts since 2008 in the number of nominations put under threat of filibuster.

    I'm never going to defend (or would I have voted for) Byrd or Kennedy.

    Clinton's lack of faith to his wife was terrible and I don't think it speaks well of his character but that certainly doesn't make Newt's actions defendable. I believe that their shared lack of fidelity was a strong bond for the two.

    But this entire debate is counter-productive. Are you expecting me to claim that the GOP are all saints because the Democrats did the same thing? Or are you willing to admit that the GOP are fraudulent *******s as well as the Democrats? If we get into these stupid false equivalencies guess who wins? And it's not you and me...
    I was not eferering to you. I was referring to Post #86. We must have been typing at the same time and I forgot to hit the "Reply with Quote" button. Sorry for the mixup and I apologize.

    Your posts make sense and although I may disagree with some parts, you show you are flexible. Not everyone seems to have that quality.

    Again, sorry for the mixup.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    This is why it is nearly impossible to have any sort of discussion/argument with people like you.

    Your party won, and congrats on that, but you fail to recognize any shortcomings in your group.

    You point out the gun nuts but embrace the abortion freaks.

    You rail against the Tea Party (who don't cause any trouble or get arrested) but seem to accept the antics of Occupy Wall street (blocking traffic and people, rapes, public urination and screwing)

    Oreilly and Rush are crazy but Al Gore and Michael Moore are sensitive

    Oreilly and Rush have "agendas" while Gore and Moore have causes

    White supremacists are evil (and they are) but Jesse, Sharpton, Rangel they're fighting for justice

    Bain is unscrupulous but ACORN is admirable

    The Evil Repubilcans are skewering Hillary but the Democrats protected us from Bork

    The self serving Republican congressman can't compare to the righteous and hold Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy

    Insufferable Newt dump his wife but Oval Office blow jobs are kinda cool.


    It's all just different flips of a coin. The Dems have admirable people and good ideas. They also have some greedy incompetent, scurrilous flakes with stupid thoughts. I don't know why you can't admit to that.

    I know the Reps have some of these types too and I recognize them when I see them.

    I wonder who really blindly follows the party line and drinks the Kool Aid.
    I knew you were responding to me when I saw the 'mixup'.

    We were talking about extremism 'within' the two parties. I gave you my reply, and you then respond with this list of pointless comparisons, which I can't be bothered to refute point by point.

    I also disagree with dbroncs who, in my opinion, was far too 'nice' in his response. I have never maintained that the Reps have a monopoly on bad policies, stupidity, or corruption. Extremism, however, is another matter entirely in my book.

    I seriously can't believe that anyone can compare O'reilly and Limbaugh to Gore and Michael Moore in any way at all. Neither Gore nor Moore are saints in my book, and are entitled to receive criticism when warranted. But, there is one profound difference between them and the other two, they are not pathological liars or distorters of truth and fact. Also, neither Gore nor Moore are remotely in the same ballpark as far as political extremism goes.

    How anyone can in all seriousness attempt to compare the TP with the Occupy movement is totally beyond me. One is a haven for the most insane extremists both within, and further to the right than, the Rep. party, while the other is an extra-parliamentary alliance of individuals protesting the evils of Wall St. Try and grasp this - the TP is part of the Rep. party, and is, in effect, trying to hijack the party from within, while the Occupy movement is a bunch of non Dem. party affiliated people protesting an issue in the streets. You are comparing apples with submarines.

    And stop with that stupid buzz reference to koolaid, which we don't even have in Europe. I have never blindly followed anyone's party line, and I have made it abundantly clear that the US Dems are no more than the lesser of two evils for me. But, I see absolutely no one on the Dem side of the US divide that scares or worries me like the hordes of batshit crazy, extreme conservatives trying to hijack the Rep. party with their totally reactionary agenda.

  5. #95
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    The problem with extremists is they believe they occupy the middle.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    I knew you were responding to me when I saw the 'mixup'.

    We were talking about extremism 'within' the two parties. I gave you my reply, and you then respond with this list of pointless comparisons, which I can't be bothered to refute point by point.

    I also disagree with dbroncs who, in my opinion, was far too 'nice' in his response. I have never maintained that the Reps have a monopoly on bad policies, stupidity, or corruption. Extremism, however, is another matter entirely in my book.

    I seriously can't believe that anyone can compare O'reilly and Limbaugh to Gore and Michael Moore in any way at all. Neither Gore nor Moore are saints in my book, and are entitled to receive criticism when warranted. But, there is one profound difference between them and the other two, they are not pathological liars or distorters of truth and fact. Also, neither Gore nor Moore are remotely in the same ballpark as far as political extremism goes.

    How anyone can in all seriousness attempt to compare the TP with the Occupy movement is totally beyond me. One is a haven for the most insane extremists both within, and further to the right than, the Rep. party, while the other is an extra-parliamentary alliance of individuals protesting the evils of Wall St. Try and grasp this - the TP is part of the Rep. party, and is, in effect, trying to hijack the party from within, while the Occupy movement is a bunch of non Dem. party affiliated people protesting an issue in the streets. You are comparing apples with submarines.

    And stop with that stupid buzz reference to koolaid, which we don't even have in Europe. I have never blindly followed anyone's party line, and I have made it abundantly clear that the US Dems are no more than the lesser of two evils for me. But, I see absolutely no one on the Dem side of the US divide that scares or worries me like the hordes of batshit crazy, extreme conservatives trying to hijack the Rep. party with their totally reactionary agenda.
    If you can't see this comparison as valid, then I cannot help you.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    If you can't see this comparison as valid, then I cannot help you.
    I agree. I expect AmsterNat believes she is a centrist.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    I agree. I expect AmsterNat believes she is a centrist.
    The content and insight of your contributions do your user name justice. I imagine you know perfectly well what my gender is, so I'll ignore your little dig.

    Of course, you and jomota are fellow travelers of the far right, so you simply can't understand the overt and obvious differences between the TP and the Occupy movement. Or, you can and do, but you deny it because it doesn't fit the specious argument being attempted here.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    The content and insight of your contributions do your user name justice...
    Chuckling

    My user name is all about justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    ...I imagine you know perfectly well what my gender is, so I'll ignore your little dig...
    I did not. But, you appear indignant so I expect you are a male. My bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmsterNat View Post
    ...Of course, you and jomota are fellow travelers of the far right, so you simply can't understand the overt and obvious differences between the TP and the Occupy movement. Or, you can and do, but you deny it because it doesn't fit the specious argument being attempted here.
    The Tea Party is populated by peaceful American citizens whose goal is peaceful protest with the goal of the movement being lower taxes. The Occupy Wall street movement is populated by subversives and Communists. It devolved into a hellish movement of rapists and criminals and if there was any noble or honorable reasons in the beginning they quickly disappeared.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    The Occupy Wall street movement is populated by subversives and Communists. It devolved into a hellish movement of rapists and criminals and if there was any noble or honorable reasons in the beginning they quickly disappeared.
    I can't take you seriously if you are going to say these things. This would be the equivalent of me saying the tea party is full of rednecks and racists.

    Outside of a few isolated incidents, the OWS movement has been a peaceful movement who have expressed political ideas that are far to the left of you or even myself, but it doesn't make them communists. If you are going to judge a political movement based on reports seen on one specific news organization, then you certainly wouldn't find problems with another (politically opposite) news organization making negative reports about the tea party, would you?

    See, this is where the double equivalency gets you. It leads to "my side is good while your side is bad". You put out the thought that OWS is terrible because of a few reports, lets face it, you saw on Fox News. Whereas if I were inclined to do so, I could say look how racist and white the tea party is because of a few reports on MSNBC. Even though I know that the tea party is not full of racists and bigots. And I hope that you know deep down that the OWS isn't full of murderers and rapists.

    So I would as you, in the same breath as I did, admit that the OWS movement is not full of rapists and murderers. Because we both know, deep down, that just isn't true. In closing, I'm going to go back to the first point that I made and say that if you truly believe that the OWS movement is just murders and rapists, then I have nothing to say other than "you couldn't me more wrong and I hope someday that you learn that".
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I can't take you seriously if you are going to say these things. This would be the equivalent of me saying the tea party is full of rednecks and racists.

    Outside of a few isolated incidents, the OWS movement has been a peaceful movement who have expressed political ideas that are far to the left of you or even myself, but it doesn't make them communists. If you are going to judge a political movement based on reports seen on one specific news organization, then you certainly wouldn't find problems with another (politically opposite) news organization making negative reports about the tea party, would you?

    See, this is where the double equivalency gets you. It leads to "my side is good while your side is bad". You put out the thought that OWS is terrible because of a few reports, lets face it, you saw on Fox News. Whereas if I were inclined to do so, I could say look how racist and white the tea party is because of a few reports on MSNBC. Even though I know that the tea party is not full of racists and bigots. And I hope that you know deep down that the OWS isn't full of murderers and rapists.

    So I would as you, in the same breath as I did, admit that the OWS movement is not full of rapists and murderers. Because we both know, deep down, that just isn't true. In closing, I'm going to go back to the first point that I made and say that if you truly believe that the OWS movement is just murders and rapists, then I have nothing to say other than "you couldn't me more wrong and I hope someday that you learn that".
    The Tea Party may have been predominantly white but that doesn't make them racists.

    The Tea Part never "occupied" anything like the OWS gang did. The Tea Party obtained permits for their public gatherings while the OWS mob just moved in. How can anyone justify just camping out for weeks in a public plaza in front of a building and hassling people on the way to work???? The Tea party never prevented anyone from entering building, pissed in the streets or screwed tents on the grass. No mention of any Tea Party rapes either.

    There were many, many instances of law breaking with the OWS. They were classless people acting like an anarchistic mob. This was reported on FOX, CNN, ABC and all the alphabets. Hannity even offered one of them a job and he wouldn't take it. And these weren't isolated incidents, they were reported all the time.

    Don't know how you can't see the point.

    What, exactly is you view of OWS???? What do you consider them to be????

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by subroc View Post
    Chuckling

    My user name is all about justice.
    What, the justice of an obsolete nuclear missile?

    I did not. But, you appear indignant so I expect you are a male. My bad.
    And you as a matter of course assume that posters on a sports forum are more likely to be women?

    The Tea Party is populated by peaceful American citizens whose goal is peaceful protest with the goal of the movement being lower taxes. The Occupy Wall street movement is populated by subversives and Communists. It devolved into a hellish movement of rapists and criminals and if there was any noble or honorable reasons in the beginning they quickly disappeared.
    Oh my word, yes, the Tea Party is just a kindly group of entirely peaceful, law abiding older folks who only want what is good and right for God's country, that good, righteous stuff, whatever it is, that has been taken away from them by the Godless socialist in Washington. They just want 'their country back'. And less taxes. And less debt. But everything else to stay as it is, er, except the price of gas, which has to come down. And more guns. Lots of guns.

    As for your characterization of the Occupy movement, that says a great deal more about you than about them.


    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I can't take you seriously if you are going to say these things. This would be the equivalent of me saying the tea party is full of rednecks and racists.

    Outside of a few isolated incidents, the OWS movement has been a peaceful movement who have expressed political ideas that are far to the left of you or even myself, but it doesn't make them communists. If you are going to judge a political movement based on reports seen on one specific news organization, then you certainly wouldn't find problems with another (politically opposite) news organization making negative reports about the tea party, would you?

    See, this is where the double equivalency gets you. It leads to "my side is good while your side is bad". You put out the thought that OWS is terrible because of a few reports, lets face it, you saw on Fox News. Whereas if I were inclined to do so, I could say look how racist and white the tea party is because of a few reports on MSNBC. Even though I know that the tea party is not full of racists and bigots. And I hope that you know deep down that the OWS isn't full of murderers and rapists.

    So I would as you, in the same breath as I did, admit that the OWS movement is not full of rapists and murderers. Because we both know, deep down, that just isn't true. In closing, I'm going to go back to the first point that I made and say that if you truly believe that the OWS movement is just murders and rapists, then I have nothing to say other than "you couldn't me more wrong and I hope someday that you learn that".
    I agree with you in broad lines, but again imho, you are being far too kind. My honest view of the TP -

    I have two music scene friends, one from OKC, whom I have met, the other from SoCal whom I only know virtually. We see eye to eye on most things, especially our love of a particular genre of (originally black) music. Neither of these men are remotely racist, and they both support the TP. We can't talk politics together because our views are simply way too far apart. These two are the only two TP people I actually 'know'. The rest of my picture, or image, of the TP comes from mainstream and other media sources, and in particular from the TP Facebook page, and various other similarly extreme right wing affiliated pages.

    If you spend any time browsing through those pages, you will find the most appalling panorama of rednecks, racists, gun nuts, and other batshit crazies. I'm talking about people whom 'normal', or traditional Reps would disown. Now, it's impossible to judge how representative these people are of the TP as a whole. Nevertheless, the page owners do nothing to one of 'their own' for posting racist slurs about the POTUS, but they will ban a 'liberal' if he gets uppity about it. They're very selective about granting FA rights to those who disagree with them. Just check out the polemical language of the topic titles on the 'official' TP page. Yeah right, the TP are just a bunch of real puddy-tats.

  13. #103
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    To bring up things like you don't recall any Tea Party rapes is pretty dumb imo. Individuals of any group, whether it's race, nationality, political group etc. have scum bags. I'm not a huge supporter of OWS, but I could just as easily say, you don't hear OWS screaming they want to kill the POTUS and his children, but in a very racist way like Jules Manson.

    I wouldn't though, except in this case to show how stupid it is to bring things like that up.
    You're talking to me all wrong... It's the wrong tone. You do it again and I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron. Hey, tell me, does your mother sew? BOOM. Get her to sew that!

  14. #104
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    I think both the TPM and OWS are bad movements, to be honest. But they are protected by the 1st and I have no problem with that.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by jomota View Post
    The Tea Party may have been predominantly white but that doesn't make them racists.

    The Tea Part never "occupied" anything like the OWS gang did. The Tea Party obtained permits for their public gatherings while the OWS mob just moved in. How can anyone justify just camping out for weeks in a public plaza in front of a building and hassling people on the way to work???? The Tea party never prevented anyone from entering building, pissed in the streets or screwed tents on the grass. No mention of any Tea Party rapes either.

    There were many, many instances of law breaking with the OWS. They were classless people acting like an anarchistic mob. This was reported on FOX, CNN, ABC and all the alphabets. Hannity even offered one of them a job and he wouldn't take it. And these weren't isolated incidents, they were reported all the time.

    Don't know how you can't see the point.

    What, exactly is you view of OWS???? What do you consider them to be????
    I'm not saying the tea party is racist. I generally don't have a problem with the tea party. I think that they are fighting for what they believe is right and while I disagree with their conclusion that doesn't make them bad or racist. Now there is no doubt that racist groups and the tea party do share some viewpoints and racist groups are trying to cling to the tea party in an attempt to get what they want politically but you can't badmouth the tea party for that just like you can't badmouth the OWS movement for the groups who share some viewpoints with them (such as communist groups). You essentially get a Reductio ad Hitlerum argument if you do that. "Well you agree with this horrible group on point X, therefore you are as bad as group X" isn't a valid argument.

    Those news organizations reported one or two incidents over and over and Fox reported on a few others that were not nearly as bad and overblown like the New Black Panther guy (reported as those he was a group even though pictures showed it was one guy). It's that kind of crap that de-legitimizes a point when you use one person to brand an entire group of people as in line with that person.

    My particular view on OWS is that the group generally supports more regulation on wall street and wants accountability from their elected leaders. They want to see social programs preserved and efforts like the wars drawn down. They do want to see more control exhibited by the federal government than I do but not for malicious reasons. They are not bad people or a bad group but they absolutely have some bad apples in the mix that want to use their national stage platform for their own purposes.
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