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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    Giving Jimmy credit has nothing to do with a superstar having a bad game. Demar Derozan played Kobe well during the same stretch of abysmal Kobe and he's not even on the same level as Butler defensively.

    I think the answer is easily Deng. There's nothing Butler does that Deng does not beyond the youth/athleticism allowing him to guard a smaller player. (I'm not even sure that's a good thing) A majority of the defensive stops are predicated on the team being there to help regardless of who's in the system and that is why the Bulls are winning games.
    He's also played against LeBron who went 0-3 against him despite calling for the ball all three times Jimmy was on him and not a single one of the shots LeBron put up was less than "heavily contested."

    And then. He made them pancakes.

  2. #17
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    I imagine sample size plays a huge role in this. I love Jimmy and what he's done so far, but I feel it hard to come to a conclusion at this point, since Jimmy's sample size is so small. I love his speed though, and believe his athleticism helps as well. Just feel it's still early to crown him over Deng.

    Regarding the game against LAL: Kobe has been in a slump and certainly played a part in how awful he shot that game. At the same time, I thought Jimmy did a great job in terms of staying with/in front of Kobe, and I felt like Kobe only had a few chances of being able to get to the rim (due in part to the help defense provided by our bigs). Not trying to take any credit from Butler, but I'd like to see him go 40 min against a Lebron or KD.

    Still, I love Jimmy Buckets and have been impressed at what he's done with the increased minutes. Hopefully he isn't too dead tired after this three game stint as a starter.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogolas View Post
    He's also played against LeBron who went 0-3 against him despite calling for the ball all three times Jimmy was on him and not a single one of the shots LeBron put up was less than "heavily contested."
    No offense, but this is is the problem with this comparison. Butler gets all of 4-5 minutes guarding Lebron and he becomes the second coming? Let's take these last three starts, a pinch of some highlight reel footage and project Butler as a perennial all-star/all-NBA defender.

    I'm high on Butler as well but cmon.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    No offense, but this is is the problem with this comparison. Butler gets all of 4-5 minutes guarding Lebron and he becomes the second coming? Let's take these last three starts, a pinch of some highlight reel footage and project Butler as a perennial all-star/all-NBA defender.

    I'm high on Butler as well but cmon.
    I agree. Deng has the experience with him and everything and to already say butler is better than deng on defense imo is a bit premature, actually very premature. I'm not taking anything away from butler either (I think he's really good) but come on.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    No offense, but this is is the problem with this comparison. Butler gets all of 4-5 minutes guarding Lebron and he becomes the second coming? Let's take these last three starts, a pinch of some highlight reel footage and project Butler as a perennial all-star/all-NBA defender.

    I'm high on Butler as well but cmon.
    I didn't actually say Butler was the better defender, did I? All I said was that he has never actually been anything but superb on defense in any sample size you want to use against anyone in the entire league.

    I mean, at what point can we say he might be the better defender? What is an OK sample to use? I certainly can't answer that question, because as we've discussed sampling is really hard to judge. All I can say is that I know Butler is a damn good defensive player. His .53PPP against in his starts along with his .76 the rest of the year before that indicate as much. Last year he had a .80, IIRC, which was equal to Deng and Brewer. And, to that end, his iso defense was far lower than either of theirs.

    How good a defender is he? I don't really know, but I also am not going to take what he's done and say that people who think he IS better are wrong. Overall? Deng is clearly the better player still, but as a defender? I don't know. I was merely putting that out there, not actually taking a side, because I honestly don't know, which is more a testament to Butler being impressive than any slight against Deng, who I think is one of the best perimeter defenders in the NBA.

    I also get that his numbers have come in less playing time, but I'm not going to just outright dismiss them, because he's shown that in a lot, lot, lot heavier minutes he's still capable of doing it. So, I won't crown him but I'm not going to step on anyone's toes that feel like he's the better 1 on 1 defender.
    Last edited by Doogolas; 01-25-2013 at 04:52 PM.

    And then. He made them pancakes.

  6. #21
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    Deng, rather easily for me. Especially on rotation defense, and people forget that Deng does it for 40 mins a night while also being expected to be the leading scorer on offense. Jimmy hasn't been tested at all like that.

  7. #22
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    lu,though jimmy has surprised me

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doogolas View Post
    I mean, at what point can we say he might be the better defender? What is an OK sample to use? I certainly can't answer that question, because as we've discussed sampling is really hard to judge. All I can say is that I know Butler is a damn good defensive player. His .53PPP against in his starts along with his .76 the rest of the year before that indicate as much. Last year he had a .80, IIRC, which was equal to Deng and Brewer. And, to that end, his iso defense was far lower than either of theirs.
    I think the really important leap in this case specifically, and the point I failed to make when you brought up the LeBron clip, is that the metrics have little to do with the personnel at all. If you accept Deng and Butler are truly different players, with different strengths and weaknesses, then how effective is the team's defense beyond the individual if not TWO, but THREE separate players are capable of producing stellar results when thrust into similar positions?

    I really don't have a problem with the comparison besides the irrational exuberance it generates - something you are not guilty of. It's great that the Bulls have this "problem" now where Butler has stepped into Deng's role and fit in perfectly and, more importantly, it's a nightmare for every other team in the league. I do, however, always believed basketball is much more the team sport than is commonly accepted and that's the reason I seem to be more of a vocal dissenter for what Jimmy Buckets is accomplishing.

    It's clear Jimmy has a gift and it certainly merits more playing time. I really hope he gets that opportunity.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    I think the really important leap in this case specifically, and the point I failed to make when you brought up the LeBron clip, is that the metrics have little to do with the personnel at all. If you accept Deng and Butler are truly different players, with different strengths and weaknesses, then how effective is the team's defense beyond the individual if not TWO, but THREE separate players are capable of producing stellar results when thrust into similar positions?

    I really don't have a problem with the comparison besides the irrational exuberance it generates - something you are not guilty of. It's great that the Bulls have this "problem" now where Butler has stepped into Deng's role and fit in perfectly and, more importantly, it's a nightmare for every other team in the league. I do, however, always believed basketball is much more the team sport than is commonly accepted and that's the reason I seem to be more of a vocal dissenter for what Jimmy Buckets is accomplishing.

    It's clear Jimmy has a gift and it certainly merits more playing time. I really hope he gets that opportunity.
    Agreed. Especially when it comes to defense, and Thibs system in particular. And yes, it is a nightmare. We might legitimately be able to guard all there of the big three effectively, and moreover, be able to let Deng have something of a break even while on the floor by putting him on Wade for spells.

    And then. He made them pancakes.

  10. #25
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    I'll go with Luol. I need a bigger sample size to put Jimmy over Luol, but i will say this lil Jimmy have impressed me during this stretch.

    “If you quit ONCE it becomes a habit. Never quit!!!”
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    Giving Jimmy credit has nothing to do with a superstar having a bad game. Demar Derozan played Kobe well during the same stretch of abysmal Kobe and he's not even on the same level as Butler defensively.

    I think the answer is easily Deng. There's nothing Butler does that Deng does not beyond the youth/athleticism allowing him to guard a smaller player. (I'm not even sure that's a good thing) A majority of the defensive stops are predicated on the team being there to help regardless of who's in the system and that is why the Bulls are winning games.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Iggz53 View Post
    Deng, rather easily for me. Especially on rotation defense, and people forget that Deng does it for 40 mins a night while also being expected to be the leading scorer on offense. Jimmy hasn't been tested at all like that.
    I would agree that Deng is the better defender because he's still a better help defender. Deng's ability to guard 2s/3s/4s is still valued (to me at least) more than Butler's ability to guard 1s/2s/3s.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopsyTurvy View Post
    I think the really important leap in this case specifically, and the point I failed to make when you brought up the LeBron clip, is that the metrics have little to do with the personnel at all. If you accept Deng and Butler are truly different players, with different strengths and weaknesses, then how effective is the team's defense beyond the individual if not TWO, but THREE separate players are capable of producing stellar results when thrust into similar positions?

    I really don't have a problem with the comparison besides the irrational exuberance it generates - something you are not guilty of. It's great that the Bulls have this "problem" now where Butler has stepped into Deng's role and fit in perfectly and, more importantly, it's a nightmare for every other team in the league. I do, however, always believed basketball is much more the team sport than is commonly accepted and that's the reason I seem to be more of a vocal dissenter for what Jimmy Buckets is accomplishing.

    It's clear Jimmy has a gift and it certainly merits more playing time. I really hope he gets that opportunity.
    It's posts like these that make this forum awesome.

  12. #27
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    I have no preference. Love them both. They are both great! Deng is more experienced of course... but no preference
    Motivating Picture for PORTUGAL @ Brasil World Cup

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