Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 39
  1. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    11,772
    vCash
    500
    Seriously, dude... this is a free forum, anyone can post here. But I just have to ask, what the hell are you doing here? Why do you post here with this nonsense constantly discrediting Bosh and other HEAT players and accomplishments? You just come off as a hater, I don't know if you are expecting to magically enlighten HEAT fans and expect them to go against their own player and agree with you.

    All that needs to be said here is 8 all-star appearances, and the NBA coaches and most analysts disagree with you about Bosh. PER and a lot of advanced stats disagree with Noah and Chandler supposedly being better than Bosh. You just favor different aspects of talents in big men, simple. But don't waste yours or our time spewing your opinion as facts.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,122
    vCash
    3876
    He has more fans than others. Thats it. Star power.
    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=66435&dateline=140520  2166

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    53,892
    vCash
    1503
    Quote Originally Posted by sturm View Post
    He has more fans than others. Thats it. Star power.
    coaches pick the reserves. fans pick the starters

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    432
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Seriously, dude... this is a free forum, anyone can post here. But I just have to ask, what the hell are you doing here?
    Already explained this in another post.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Why do you post here with this nonsense constantly discrediting Bosh and other HEAT players and accomplishments?
    Other HEAT players? Which other Heat players other than Bosh and Cole have I maligned? I've done it for the simple fact that Bosh is a cap-strap (not worth 110 mil) and Cole is just atrociously bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You just come off as a hater...
    Nah, I stick to facts, thank you. Unlike you I don't have blinders on, and thus can see where a lot of the Heat's problems lie. They mainly lie in their lack of front court depth. Beyond LeBron, they just don't have quality bigs. It's no shame in admitting a weakness, as the quickest way to solving a problem, is addressing it. Bosh is not gonna magically transform into an elite rebounder (as he's been a mediocre rebounder @ PF his entire career; his career 11.8 rebs per 48 tells us this). He's also not that good at doing much else, outside of scoring efficiently (which is a very important thing, cuz this is what saves him from being a bad player).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    I don't know if you are expecting to magically enlighten HEAT fans and expect them to go against their own player and agree with you.
    Idk about "magically?" I'm expecting to illustrate a point with facts (numbers that can be tangibly seen).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    All that needs to be said here is 8 all-star appearances...
    All-star appearances are subjective (unfortunately). And what typically gets you in, is scoring, as well as being on a winning team, not necessarily your actual production (contribution to the team).

    At this stage in his career, Bosh has 8 all-star appearances, Rodman finished his career with 2. If you really believe Bosh is better than Rodman (or even anywhere near the same stratosphere in terms of production), my conversation with you will effectively end here (as you will have proven your idiocy).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    and the NBA coaches and most analysts disagree with you about Bosh. PER and a lot of advanced stats disagree with Noah and Chandler supposedly being better than Bosh.
    Hollinger's PER is one of the only advanced stats that disagrees with Chandler and Noah being better. Most others don't. Fact is, PER largely measures offensive performance, negating (and often times rewarding) inefficient shooting. One of the big reasons anyone with half a brain takes PER with an irreverent grain of salt. I didn't need PER to prove how ridiculously bad Norris Cole is.

    Btw, Andre Drummond has a better PER. So not only do his per minute averages justify him being the East's best big man, PER seems to affirm this notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    You just favor different aspects of talents in big men, simple. But don't waste yours or our time spewing your opinion as facts.
    Let's look at his "so-called" talents when compared to Noah for example.

    Chris Bosh 2013 numbers per 48: 2.4 asts; 1.9 blks; 3.7 pfs; 24.4 pts; 10.6 rebs; 1.1 stls; 2.7 tovs

    Joakim Noah 2013 numbers per 48: 5.2 asts; 2.8 blks; 3.4 pfs; 15.1 pts; 14.1 rebs; 1.6 stls; 3.4 tovs

    ^As you can see Noah is exorbitantly better at doing almost everything, safe for scoring, and taking care of the basketball (Bosh is more efficient with his possessions overall, though both are still below-average with respect to turns). Now let's take a look at their respective shooting numbers.

    Chris Bosh 2013 shooting numbers: .250 3pt%; .551 eFG%; .543 FG%; .817 FT%; 1.42 PPS; .606 TS%

    Joakim Noah 2013 shooting numbers: .000 3pt%; .458 eFG%; .458 FG%; .754 FT%; 1.22 PPS; .516 TS%

    ^From their numbers, it's clear we can surmise that Bosh is by far and away the more efficient shooter this season. To be fair though, this is a down year in Noah's shooting. Outside of his rookie season, his true shooting % hasn't been below .561. But this is where things get interesting. While Noah may be inefficient, he's only averaging about 12-13 shot attempts per 48 (that's WAY below average). So actually, the fact that he avoids taking very many shots, works to his advantage, since he hasn't been as efficient with them (unlike in years past). In other words, the fact that he's an inefficient shooter, doesn't hurt his production as much as it would someone like Bosh who does take quite a few more shot attempts (on a per minute basis).

    Conclusion: Bosh is better at doing three things. He's better at shooting, as a result, the fact that he's a better scorer than Noah, adds to Bosh's value (unlike Bargnani), and Bosh is better at taking care of the basketball (although neither is particularly that good by comparison to other big men). Noah on the other hand (outside of those three things) does almost everything else better.

    Yeah dude, Bosh is really better than Noah (despite the latter doing more).
    Last edited by Dré; 01-29-2013 at 07:28 PM.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    11,772
    vCash
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Dré View Post
    Already explained this in another post.



    Other HEAT players? Which other Heat players other than Bosh and Cole have I maligned? I've done it for the simple fact that Bosh is a cap-strap (not worth 110 mil) and Cole is just atrociously bad.



    Nah, I stick to facts, thank you. Unlike you I don't have blinders on, and thus can see where a lot of the Heat's problems lie. They mainly lie in their lack of front court depth. Beyond LeBron, they just don't have quality bigs. It's no shame in admitting a weakness, as the quickest way to solving a problem, is addressing it. Bosh is not gonna magically transform into an elite rebounder (as he's been a mediocre rebounder @ PF his entire career; his career 11.8 rebs per 48 tells us this). He's also not that good at doing much else, outside of scoring efficiently (which is a very important thing, cuz this is what saves him from being a bad player).



    Idk about "magically?" I'm expecting to illustrate a point with facts (numbers that can be tangibly seen).



    All-star appearances are subjective (unfortunately). And what typically gets you in, is scoring, as well as being on a winning team, not necessarily your actual production (contribution to the team).

    At this stage in his career, Bosh has 8 all-star appearances, Rodman finished his career with 2. If you really believe Bosh is better than Rodman (or even anywhere near the same stratosphere in terms of production), my conversation with you will effectively end here (as you will have proven your idiocy).



    Hollinger's PER is one of the only advanced stats that disagrees with Chandler and Noah being better. Most others don't. Fact is, PER largely measures offensive performance, negating (and often times rewarding) inefficient shooting. One of the big reasons anyone with half a brain takes PER with an irreverent grain of salt. I didn't need PER to prove how ridiculously bad Norris Cole is.

    Btw, Andre Drummond has a better PER. So not only do his per minute averages justify him being the East's best big man, PER seems to affirm this notion.



    Let's look at his "so-called" talents when compared to Noah for example.

    Chris Bosh 2013 numbers per 48: 2.4 asts; 1.9 blks; 3.7 pfs; 24.4 pts; 10.6 rebs; 1.1 stls; 2.7 tovs

    Joakim Noah 2013 numbers per 48: 5.2 asts; 2.8 blks; 3.4 pfs; 15.1 pts; 14.1 rebs; 1.6 stls; 3.4 tovs

    ^As you can see Noah is exorbitantly better at doing almost everything, safe for scoring, and taking care of the basketball (Bosh is more efficient with his possessions overall, though both are still below-average with respect to turns). Now let's take a look at their respective shooting numbers.

    Chris Bosh 2013 shooting numbers: .250 3pt%; .551 eFG%; .543 FG%; .817 FT%; 1.42 PPS; .606 TS%

    Joakim Noah 2013 shooting numbers: .000 3pt%; .458 eFG%; .458 FG%; .754 FT%; 1.22 PPS; .516 TS%

    ^From their numbers, it's clear we can surmise that Bosh is by far and away the more efficient shooter this season. To be fair though, this is a down year in Noah's shooting. Outside of his rookie season, his true shooting % hasn't been below .561. But this is where things get interesting. While Noah may be inefficient, he's only averaging about 12-13 shot attempts per 48 (that's WAY below average). So actually, the fact that he avoids taking very many shots, works to his advantage, since he hasn't been as efficient with them (unlike in years past). In other words, the fact that he's an inefficient shooter, doesn't hurt his production as much as it would someone like Bosh who does take quite a few more shot attempts (on a per minute basis).

    Conclusion: Bosh is better at doing three things. He's better at shooting, as a result, the fact that he's a better scorer than Noah, adds to Bosh's value (unlike Bargnani), and Bosh is better at taking care of the basketball (although neither is particularly that good by comparison to other big men). Noah on the other hand (outside of those three things) does almost everything else better.

    Yeah dude, Bosh is really better than Noah (despite the latter doing more).
    Your stats focus in on a microcosm and turn a blind eye to a lot of attributes and something that is often overlooked, "the general consensus" which counts for something. Anyone can make a fact based argument, that is biased and skewed to their perspective... for example, I can state a Dodge Dart is better than a Toyota Corolla because from a given price point of $17,000 it has 30 more horsepower, has a higher highway MPG, has a larger passenger and cargo volume, and has almost double the powertrain warranty, and 4x the roadside assistance coverage. All completely factual and valid points. But why does the Toyota Corolla outsell the Dodge Dart 10:1? It because it is better in a couple of other ways that by the "general consensus" outweigh whatever advantages the Dart may appear to have on paper. I can list probably 20 non-subjective facts that state why the Dart is better, and probably only 6-7 why the Corolla is better, but nonetheless the Dodge Dart is considered to be a huge flop in the car business and will never ever catch the Corolla. But back to NBA discussion...

    The general consensus around the NBA, around NBA analysts, and among fans is Bosh is better than Noah and Chandler, simple. No GM would pay either of those guys the same as Bosh. Heck, its the same reason why Noah himself is paid less than his own teammate Carlos Boozer. Noah and Chandler types are a dime a dozen. Chandler, Noah, Asik, Varejao, McGee, Jordan, .... these guys are all basically the same player with different last names. Bosh is unique and has more overall talent than any one of those players. There are way less Bosh types with the size, defense, scoring, shooting, and overall talent. Bosh can play either PF or C... neither of Chandler or Noah can, they are Centers only, and your offense would be hurt drastically playing them at PF. I also feel while Bosh isn't the defender either of those 2 are, he defends both positions good enough, while those other 2 would get into foul trouble and feel out of place defending a lot of small, quick, good outside shooting PFs full time. Bosh can also provide you with isolation scoring and command double teams which is infinitely valuable in this league. Noah and Chandler on the other hand need to be spoon fed or have their offense come off the glass. They can't really create consistently. Finally, you are in the last minute of a game and you need baskets and stops, these other guys hurt you in many situations because of their mediocre/poor/streaky foul shooting, and the fact that they are a decoy outside of 5 feet from the basket. Can you really put any finite amount on how much more valuable Bosh is in these situations where instead of leaving him on the bench like Noah and Chandler often are left for final possessions, and hoping to get a timeout or other clock stop where you can sub them back in, but instead having a guy like Bosh that you leave in for your offense and defense substitution lineups? really, how much? 2 million more a season? 5 million more? I don't know... I'll let you decide since you know so much.


    In conclusion, you haven't conducted some ground-breaking in depth analysis that forsakes the fact that Bosh is an 8x all-star, including 7 times where the coaches and not the fans voted him in. I totally agree with you though... these coaches have a bad perception of the game, and made the same subjective mistake all these years in a row, and you know better.
    Last edited by beasted86; 01-29-2013 at 10:46 PM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    432
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    The general consensus around the NBA...
    Lol, coaches have been known to incorrectly utilize players, awarding bad players like Bargnani and Harrington minutes, over productive players like Davis, Evans, and Johnson in Toronto, and Faried, McGee, and Koufas in Denver. We saw this very same travesty in Minnesota with Kevin Love (his rookie season), and we're seeing it now with Andre Drummond in Detroit (who is having a monster season btw; just look at what he does every time he plays 25+ mins).

    This just in, many NBA coaches are morons. The only two I have faith in at this stage, are Phil Jackson and Gregg Popavich (along with possibly Thibodeau of Chicago, and Vogel of Indiana). And even those guys make some mistakes with their allotment of playing time.

    It's the same with NBA GMs, look at Colangelo of Toronto, this dummy, will be packaging two of his better players (in Calderon and Davis) for Rudy Gay (a below-average SF who can score, but does it inefficiently; lol @ a true shooting % of .470). This is further compounded by the fact that Colangelo will be retaining an abysmally bad player in Bargnani. If people thought Toronto was bad before, with a lineup featuring Bargnani, DeRozan, and Gay, now the Raps will be getting significantly worse. It would be icing on the cake if the third team (possibly Detroit) also gets Amir Johnson, and Toronto gets Charlie Villanueva. Oh man, I'll be rolling on the floor.

    As for players (and former players), have you seen the state of Jordan-run teams? Outside of the great pickup of Billups and Wallace (which helped net the Pistons a third championship), what has Joe Dumars done for Detroit? I guess he did draft Drummond? But this was fortuitous luck imo, by the collegiate numbers, Drummond wasn't supposed to be this good (I'm sure we'll get into that later). Steve Kerr did a decent job (outside of the Marion for a declining Shaq trade), but hearing him on tv, I'm not so sure that it was by design as much as luck? No, the only organization I've seen consistently do a wonderful job of drafting/signing/trading are the Spurs. I guess you can throw in the Thunder's recent success, but they seriously dodged a bullet in losing Harden. I'm still not sure they made the right move long-term, as Martin will be 30, and is on the decline (whereas Harden is already beasting and only entering his prime). Unless ofc, Lamb develops into Harden?

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    around NBA analysts...
    This is false, I can find you other metrics (devised by other sports analysts/economists) that disagree with Bosh being a better pick up than Chandler, Noah.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...and among fans is Bosh is better than Noah and Chandler, simple...
    The same fans that have voted so many marginal talents to other all-star games in favor of studs like Rodman (in the 80s and 90s), Chauncey Billups and (Ben) Wallace (through the 2000s), et al. There are so many underrated stars and superstars, it's not even funny. All one need do, is just take a deeper look at the numbers, as opposed to the degree of difficulty.

    At the end of the day, you don't get style points for being able to hit a turnaround, fall away, 21-foot, hand-in-your-face, jay. It's still just two-points. Basketball is not ballet, or dance, or competitive diving.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...No GM would pay either of those guys the same as Bosh.
    You're right, but the sad truth is that guys like Noah are actually underpaid, and guys like Bosh are overpaid. LeBron is an example of an actual superstar that is underpaid (LeBron should be making WAY more money).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...Heck, its the same reason why Noah himself is paid less than his own teammate Carlos Boozer...
    Actually, the fact that Boozer makes more than Noah has to do with seniority. The NBA's CBA is scaled to favor vet players rather than younger players. This is why guys like Davis (of Nola) and Drummond (of Motown) will be getting royally screwed (as a result). There is the "Derrick Rose rule," but that will only come into effect once a player comes off the deal. So rookies like Davis and Drummond will be locked into their rookie deals, no matter how much more deserving they are, than the rest of the comp.

    I never got why a player could make that kind of money later into their career (rather than sooner)? The fact is, you enter your prime between your early to mid-twenties, and leave it by your late twenties to early thirties. And thus begins the gradual descent down the summit; for those that have been affected by repeated injuries, sometimes that descent, can be more like a plummet. If you were never really productive... Well, not much changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Noah and Chandler types are a dime a dozen. Chandler, Noah, Asik, Varejao, McGee, Jordan, .... these guys are all basically the same player with different last names.
    Yes, they are a dime dozen. But Centers/PFs that can score in bunches are a dime a dozen as well (not as unique as you think). E.g., Ryan Anderson, Andrea Bargnani, Rashard Lewis (once-upon a time), Zach Randolph, et al. To be fair, Zach Randolph has transformed himself over the last few seasons, into a very good player (but he wasn't always this productive).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...Bosh is unique and has more overall talent than any one of those players.
    Again, what does he do better? Heck, if we exclude Noah's shooting percentages from this year, the difference (in shooting efficiency) becomes marginal. Even when incorporating this year, Noah's true shooting % is a pretty solid ~.560 (compare to Bosh's .571). Matter fact, not only does he become very nearly the efficient shooter Bosh is when looking at career arcs, but Noah becomes a better ball handler than Bosh (he's turned it over an aggregate of 2.7x per 48 for his career compared to Bosh's 2.8x). The fact is, there's really nothing outside of scoring ability that Bosh has over Noah. Nothing! So what talents are you speaking of?

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...There are way less Bosh types with the size, defense, scoring, shooting, and overall talent. Bosh can play either PF or C... neither of Chandler or Noah can, they are Centers only, and your offense would be hurt drastically playing them at PF. I also feel while Bosh isn't the defender either of those 2 are, he defends both positions good enough, while those other 2 would get into foul trouble and feel out of place defending a lot of small, quick, good outside shooting PFs full time.
    Entirely subjective. You have no statistical evidence to back up these claims. As a matter of fact, just that you mention Bosh and defense in the same sentence, is laughable at best. Nucca gets pushed around by point guards for cripe's sake. His rebounding woes are a by product of his poor interior d. Everyone knows this.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...Bosh can also provide you with isolation scoring and command double teams which is infinitely valuable in this league...
    Lol, Bosh does not command double teams the way he might have in Toronto (and even then, he's never been double/triple teamed a la Shaq in his prime, or LeBron).

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...Noah and Chandler on the other hand need to be spoon fed or have their offense come off the glass.
    So a lot of Chandler's points are scored near or @ the rim? So what? That's called playing smart basketball. One of the reasons why LeBron has been better than Kobe since the 04-05 campaign (Bron's second year in the league). Should I negate how great of a player Bron is because he's smart enough to take a majority of his shots near or @ the rim. Just on shots at the rim or 9 ft out, those have comprised 50% of Bron's field goal attempts in 2012-13. This is not including the shots he takes 10-15 ft out. So what have we learned? That LeBron is smart enough to limit himself from taking too many bad shots (16 ft or more), unlike Kobe. So much for those SAT scores from the mamba.

    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    ...In conclusion, you haven't conducted some ground-breaking in depth analysis that forsakes the fact that Bosh is an 8x all-star, including 7 times where the coaches and not the fans voted him in. I totally agree with you though... these coaches have a bad perception of the game, and made the same subjective mistake all these years in a row, and you know better...
    As I said, there are many great players that were never recognized by their peers (contemporary and otherwise), coaches, and fans. Rodman is a great example of that. Again, if how great a player is, is measured by something as subjective as all-star appearances. Than guys like Rodman fall way short of the gauge unfortunately. Fact is, greatness is measured by on-the-court productivity. And boxscore statistics are one of the best evaluators of your worth as a player. If all you can do is score, and not do much else (respective to position). How can you be considered great?

    Honestly, I didn't want to skip over some of your responses (as I consider everything to be poignant in a discussion), but this was getting mighty long.
    Last edited by Dré; 01-30-2013 at 08:51 PM.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    7,010
    vCash
    16200
    Im pretty sick of the disrespect Bosh gets in this forum

    He's prolly the east best Bigman and league top 5

    He's playing beside the 2 guys who prolly hold the ball most in the league and he still gets numbers

    Swap Lopez and Bosh , Bosh is having CRAZY numbers again

    Yes he deserves it




    Big Ben?Naw much better



    The Future Of Jacksonville

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    7,010
    vCash
    16200
    AND lmao

    Chandler and Noah bettter then Bosh??really?

    Just laughable for many reasons




    Big Ben?Naw much better



    The Future Of Jacksonville

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    53,892
    vCash
    1503
    My biggest problem with bosh is he needs the ball to be productive. He is not a guy that will do other things, he wont pound the glass, he wont play lockdown D. It's dissapointing, if his shots arent falling, he does nothing out there

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    432
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by justinnum1 View Post
    My biggest problem with bosh is he needs the ball to be productive. He is not a guy that will do other things, he wont pound the glass, he wont play lockdown D. It's dissapointing, if his shots arent falling, he does nothing out there
    Exactly what I said in my post. Only I had to back it up with facts, or the clowns on here wouldn't get it.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Miami, FL
    Posts
    11,772
    vCash
    500
    Quote Originally Posted by Dré View Post
    Exactly what I said in my post. Only I had to back it up with facts, or the clowns on here wouldn't get it.
    Sure thing homeslice. I'm a clown because I have a difference of opinion.





  12. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Caloocan,Philippines
    Posts
    2,709
    vCash
    1500
    wait a minute ? what happened here ? lol been busy this last 2 weeks ! but that indy loss

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    432
    vCash
    1500
    Quote Originally Posted by beasted86 View Post
    Sure thing homeslice. I'm a clown because I have a difference of opinion.
    Well at least two actually great hall of famers agree with me. Barkley and Russell know a fellow great when they see one.

    While Noah's no Barkley or Russell (or Rodman for that matter), he's WAY closer to those guys than Bosh has ever been (or will ever be), a man who's been continually ridiculed by Barkley for being a 7-foot tampon. Might wanna save that diasporic south Asian hand flailing for "the RuPaul of big men."

    I've actually been surprised at Barkley, he's been a better overall assessor of talent than most of his fellow peers (both contemporary and current). I'm still not sold on him (as a GM) though. Would like to see more before jumping onto that bandwagon. But he'd probably make a better one than MJ.

    Ever wonder what this HEAT team would do without both Bron and Wade (would likely be sub-500). This, while the Bulls (sans Rose) are still picking up Ws (it's no coincidence why Noah plays close to 40 mins a night ).

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    3,075
    vCash
    1500
    Lol

    ┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐


  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Southern CA
    Posts
    18,631
    vCash
    666
    Quote Originally Posted by Dré View Post
    Exactly what I said in my post. Only I had to back it up with facts, or the clowns on here wouldn't get it.
    Well I'm sure it won't help your case calling people clowns to make a point.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •