Curious question

[phillyeaglesman]

I think Matt Read is a really nice tertiary piece. I actually really like him. He's a fantastic 3rd line goal scorer and I could see some upward mobility where he could be a real 2nd line asset.

And I agree, he seems to be the "odd man out" and I don't know why. He seems to be the guy fans are most "okay" with losing when it comes to him, Schenn and Couturier, but out of the 3, I actually think he's more valuable tot his team than either of them currently because he actually adds something different: pure shooting ability. Couts and Schenn, while fantastic, and with huge upsides, kind of bring "more of the same". Not saying Read's better, just maybe more valuable today.

Matt Read is the type of wing that is necessary to win a cup ... he was the best player on the ice for several of his shifts against buffalo and NJ ... a little quiet in the NYR game, but Matt Read is critical to us having that 3rd line that can score, defend and compete

i dont see as good as patrick sharp, but i see why you made the comparison ... he will be good where-ever he goes because of his skill and how he sees the ice

i agree that the team needs players like matt read, which is why i believe changing this team too much ultimately will do more harm than good.


all this talk about "you're gonna have to trade one" and "who's the most expendable"....it's stupid. this is a young team that needs to be kept together.


while i agree matt read is the type of player you need to win a cup, the fact is he really is the most expendable. he's not going to get much better than he already is. he played 4 years of college hockey. he's 26 years old. what you see is about what you're going to get from him, give or take maybe 5 goals and 10 points. he's a nice player, but his ceiling is low.


guys like Couts and Schenn are on another level. honestly, it's unfair to compare Read to these guys. it's unfair to Read. he's not in the same class. he's got 5-6 years on these guys. Read was playing college hockey when these guys were starting in the NHL. hell, Couts was putting up 96 points in the QMJHL for the second consecutive season when Read was just about to start his freshman year of college. you can't compare Read with those two, it's unfair to Read. he's not their caliber of player.


and yes, i know, Couts and Schenn are both natural centerman. i disagree however when it is said that Schenn doesn't play the wing well. again, he just turned 21. if you want to make him into a wing, you have plenty of time to do it. hell, G was drafted as a RW and played RW his whole life until about 2 years ago. and yeah, i know, he's G. point still stands: Schenn is 21, not 25 or 26. if you want him to play wing, he'll play. i honestly don't think he cares where he plays as long as he gets ice time.


i also don't agree that there aren't any shooters among these guys. are they snipers?? absolutely not. that being said, Couts and Schenn can really shoot the puck. again, they're young. it's a matter of them finding their niche in the league and becoming more aggressive and assertive on offense (more in Couts's case in particular) and becoming more comfortable as guys that serve a purpose on this team and are counted on to win.



there's no need to go trading any of these guys, i don't care how much the team struggles this season. bobby ryan, pk subban, shea weber, whatever. if the deal can't get done without including them, i don't see the need.

[1908_Cubs]

It's the idea that "they're young so we gotta keep 'em!" that's the issue. That's simple stubbornness. They're simply....redundant players. It's too much of the very same. And I forgot when anyone was suggesting we trade them for 30 something's. Bobby Ryan is young too. He's 26, for example, come March. But he's a different type of a player....not the same thing we have. Couts, Schenn and Laughton....all in the same mold. None project to score more than 60-70 points, none project as anything more than a tops-out-at-30 goal scorer. Sure projections are just that....projections and sometimes, you get Giroux. But that's rare. It's not common. And no one has projected either Schenn, Laughton or Couturier anything that stands out offensively. What we do know for certain is that Bobby Ryan is a dynamo offensively, and particularly at putting pucks in the net.

You can't win every trade outright. Sometimes, a simple reshuffling of talent is necessary. This team...has too much of the same. We saw how very easily it was to shut us down in the playoffs, and we're seeing it again this year. No one worries about a single one of our shooters. Why would you?

Trading a Couts, or a Schenn certainly hurts but it's our one position of depth. Too much depth. And too much depth at one position and not having the flexibility to trade them will harm this team down the road. No one is saying to sell them short, but I'd trade Sean Couturier all day for Bobby Ryan right now if it was a simple 1 to 1 trade, or, if it was Couts + some movable pieces (like a mediocre AHL talent and a 3rd or even 2nd round selection). I'm not saying sell the farm for a quick fix. Bobby Ryan is neither a quick fix nor old. In fact, this organization doesn't have a single scoring threat in it's minor league system right now, or coming any time soon. What we do have in droves....are two-way centers.

[MMC1710]

Even though Read is an older player....I don't think he's quite reached his ceiling yet. Read has very good offensive know-how....he's got a good shot....and he finds open spots in the offensive zone....I think once the NHL game slows down for him, Schenn, and Couts the Flyers are going to be in for something in firepower we haven't seen in awhile with those 3 and Giroux....

Now if we could just draft young defensemen with the same upside to their games defensively.

[phillyeaglesman]

It's the idea that "they're young so we gotta keep 'em!" that's the issue. That's simple stubbornness. They're simply....redundant players. It's too much of the very same. And I forgot when anyone was suggesting we trade them for 30 something's. Bobby Ryan is young too. He's 26, for example, come March. But he's a different type of a player....not the same thing we have. Couts, Schenn and Laughton....all in the same mold. None project to score more than 60-70 points, none project as anything more than a tops-out-at-30 goal scorer. Sure projections are just that....projections and sometimes, you get Giroux. But that's rare. It's not common. And no one has projected either Schenn, Laughton or Couturier anything that stands out offensively. What we do know for certain is that Bobby Ryan is a dynamo offensively, and particularly at putting pucks in the net.

You can't win every trade outright. Sometimes, a simple reshuffling of talent is necessary. This team...has too much of the same. We saw how very easily it was to shut us down in the playoffs, and we're seeing it again this year. No one worries about a single one of our shooters. Why would you?

Trading a Couts, or a Schenn certainly hurts but it's our one position of depth. Too much depth. And too much depth at one position and not having the flexibility to trade them will harm this team down the road. No one is saying to sell them short, but I'd trade Sean Couturier all day for Bobby Ryan right now if it was a simple 1 to 1 trade, or, if it was Couts + some movable pieces (like a mediocre AHL talent and a 3rd or even 2nd round selection). I'm not saying sell the farm for a quick fix. Bobby Ryan is neither a quick fix nor old. In fact, this organization doesn't have a single scoring threat in it's minor league system right now, or coming any time soon. What we do have in droves....are two-way centers.

this is just going to be one of those arguments where both sides make complete sense but neither of us are going to agree with the other.


i understand your point; in no way, shape, or form am i saying it's invalid or wrong. i just don't believe it would be in the best interest of the organization to trade away their young pieces before they know what they really have in them. Couts doesn't project to be a top scoring forward; honestly i'm not sure how that makes sense. he had 2 straight 96 point seasons in Drummondville. the last player to do that in juniors was Sidney Crosby.


NO, i'm not comparing him to Crosby; i'm simply stating that you don't put up those kind of numbers in the Q without having pretty great upside as a scorer.


you mention Read as being one of those guys necessary to win Cups, Couts and Schenn types IMO are much more valuable in that regard. think of Schenn as a Mike Richards and Couts as a Jordan Staal. both were absolutely crucial pieces to their teams winning Cups. if you want to put one over the other, i think Couts is more valuable than Schenn. that being said, Brayden isn't going anywhere now that they have his older brother. i think that pretty much solidifies him staying here. they are way too close and tight-knit. if they brake that up, the production of the other brother will suffer.



but again, agree to disagree.

[1908_Cubs]

Oh I didn't actually mention Read as the kind of guy you need over Schenn and Couts - I think those guys are just as important. Only that on a team full of two-way, gritty forecheckers, his speed and shooting is more valuable than either Couts or Schenn individually (based on how he brings a completely different skill set).

And yeah, I completely agree that Richards and Staal were important to winning cups - but neither team had both. They only needed one of them to win a Cup. Which kind of goes exactly to my thinking: one of them is necessary, the other becomes redundant. Which is really why I say: pick which one you like best and use the other to further our ability elsewhere. I'm just afraid of getting into this holding pattern of "they're ours! we wont trade them, 'cuz they be ours!" based on attachment instead of opening looking to improve the team as a whole.

I love Couts, I love Schenn. Hell, I already love what I see out of Laughton. And I agree that with Luke here, the chances we trade Braden diminish completely, although I don't buy that either of them diminish - they've played much of their careers without each other - it's not like a Sedin situation. And I think Sean Couturier is actually the guy I'd be willing to move even with out the Schenn brothers (as much as I like him). For me, it's a tough call, but I think the team is better moving Couts for what we don't have, than playing the keeper game.

But yeah, neither probably moves off our points, and both have logic on their side. It's what makes it a tough call.

[MMC1710]

If, by the end of their 3rd season in the NHL, they haven't made any progress in their games then I think they become trade bait....If the game doesn't slow down for them by then....it may not ever.

[elate]

1908 I generally agree with you but at this point I’d take Couturier over Schenn. Especially when you consider that Schenn will probably fetch more.

[phillyeaglesman]

If, by the end of their 3rd season in the NHL, they haven't made any progress in their games then I think they become trade bait....If the game doesn't slow down for them by then....it may not ever.

this.

i just think it's too early to trade any of these guys. if anything, like i said before, read would/should be the first to go out of the 3 of them since he's closest to his potential at this point.


honestly right now though i don't think it's necessary to move any of them.

[1908_Cubs]

If, by the end of their 3rd season in the NHL, they haven't made any progress in their games then I think they become trade bait....If the game doesn't slow down for them by then....it may not ever.

And at that point, they lose almost all of their initial value. Of course as a franchise we'd love to sell them when they look worst for someone great - why wouldn't we? But this is purely Flyer-centric thinking. Just like players like Kyle Turris failed to fetch much in a trade after 3 years of failing to take any major steps, Couturier and Schenn will as well.

This offseason will probably be one of our last chances to make big on you "young + cheap" premise of Schenn/Couts. Either they hit it big and they get far more expensive in RFA deals or they falter killing their value.

I don't say I'd like to trade them light heartedly, only that I think a little "reorganizing" of our current talent into spots where we're clearly lacking might be good for us.

[Randall Stevens]

Matt Read is the type of wing that is necessary to win a cup ... he was the best player on the ice for several of his shifts against buffalo and NJ ... a little quiet in the NYR game, but Matt Read is critical to us having that 3rd line that can score, defend and compete

i dont see as good as patrick sharp, but i see why you made the comparison ... he will be good where-ever he goes because of his skill and how he sees the ice

thats the best point ive read on here in a while. UNLESS Wellwood develops into a shooter, but so far thats a no

[castan_b]

thats the best point ive read on here in a while. UNLESS Wellwood develops into a shooter, but so far thats a no

wellwood might be the fastest player in the league ... he outraced letang in the pitt game to nullify the icing ... i have yet to see someone that fast since bure

[StryderSox]

I can see both sides of this but I think our time to trade Couts or Schenn passed with Weber. I think we need to stand pat now and worse case scenario we take a top 10 pick and try to trade up for Seth Jones.

[1908_Cubs]

I can see both sides of this but I think our time to trade Couts or Schenn passed with Weber. I think we need to stand pat now and worse case scenario we take a top 10 pick and try to trade up for Seth Jones.

Eh, I don't think the time has passed, I think it's still upon us. That said, I'm only trading one of them for a return worth it. Don't rush into it, but if you can get a Bobby Ryan for one of them (+ a wee bit of a filler on out side if needed), than I do it. Hell, I'd do it for Subban as well. But you need a >25-26 year old established dynamo or a >23 year old who's proven value with still big upside for me to pull the trigger.

The return has to be really big, but I'm okay with moving one. But that's where I end it, I'm not using them in a deal that's bringing us a 30 something player.