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  1. #241
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    Starting to come around to this trade.

    While I didn't lietrading Prado at first I'm good with it in that we would of had to give up better talent plus lose Prado anyways after one season.

    I myself want big on any of the specs we traded other than Delgado.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrench View Post
    Starting to come around to this trade.

    While I didn't lietrading Prado at first I'm good with it in that we would of had to give up better talent plus lose Prado anyways after one season.

    I myself want big on any of the specs we traded other than Delgado.
    Yeah, you gotta like that you didn't give up any of your big prospects. I don't think much of Delgado personally, and outside of him you didn't give up anything that you'll likely care about.

    Towers really needed to find a top rated prospect in any deal. He would rather have Prado and Delgado I guess, or maybe he was never offered more. But for Upton, I feel like a top prospect should have been necessary. A Ty Walker, a Julio Teheran at least.

  3. #243
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    the braves have so much talent in the minors its sickening.

    What was meant for me will be Mine once again... THE CHAMP OF CHAMPS IS BACK

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    He saved 3 runs there this year in 92 innings, and he isn't a below average defensive second basemen. He is basically league average there.

    If he played short everyday, he would be below league average there, but he could play the position and his bat would be insanely valuable for the position.

    He would have been the 2nd or 3rd (depending where you rank Jeter's 2012) offensive shortstop this season, only behind Ian Desmond.

    He wouldn't be great defensive at short, but he could definitely play the position.

    His value is not in his versatility, although that's a nice bonus.

    And you can't say 'if he could do it he would be there already' because that's assuming that managers utilize what is best for the team always. Like Jeter staying at shortstop all these years, or John Jaso and Andre Ethier not being used in a platoon role even though they clearly should be. You can't appeal to authority so easily.
    92 innings of shortstop. I thought you knew better than to say something like this.

    In over 1700 innings at 2nd he's cost about 10 runs on average (UZR). For comparison's sake, Jhonny Peralta has cost 8.4 runs on average in his career at shortstop. To say that Prado is worse at 2nd than Peralta is at SS is, well, Jeter level bad. It's worse than that. It's so bad that nobody has ever seriously thought about playing him there. Prado is just plain awful as a regular middle infielder. There was thought he might could get away with 2B because of offense, but that inspired so much confidence in the Braves that they gave Uggla a record contract for second basemen.

    So again, bad.

    EDIT: I mixed up my columns on UZR quotes. So the damage is even worse since I gave the counting number rather than the average.
    Last edited by flea; 01-24-2013 at 03:57 PM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by More-Than-Most View Post
    I like this deal for the Dbacks..... Is 2 years of upton really worth that much and why is the defense of prado not taken into account? Upton has massive upside though
    Eh? We didn't give up that much. One year of Prado and a handful of prospects who never would have fit into our long term plans anyway. Delgado is the best of the bunch and he profiles as a number 4 starter down the line.

    I love Prado and I think just about every Braves fan feels the same way, but his defensive stats from last season are over-inflated, he's a good but not great defender. Obviously this trade doesn't look as good if Upton repeats his 2012 season as opposed to his 2011 season, but he was dealing with a hand injury last year and what I can only imagine was a bad clubhouse environment.

    I don't think it's some sort of pipe-dream to imagine that Justin is going to put up the .900+ OPS that he's clearly capable of, especially since he's only 25 years old.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by HickCaesar View Post
    Eh? We didn't give up that much. One year of Prado and a handful of prospects who never would have fit into our long term plans anyway. Delgado is the best of the bunch and he profiles as a number 4 starter down the line.

    I love Prado and I think just about every Braves fan feels the same way, but his defensive stats from last season are over-inflated, he's a good but not great defender. Obviously this trade doesn't look as good if Upton repeats his 2012 season as opposed to his 2011 season, but he was dealing with a hand injury last year and what I can only imagine was a bad clubhouse environment.

    I don't think it's some sort of pipe-dream to imagine that Justin is going to put up the .900+ OPS that he's clearly capable of, especially since he's only 25 years old.
    I do not disagree with any of this.... Also you have about 4000000 top prospects in the minors.

    What was meant for me will be Mine once again... THE CHAMP OF CHAMPS IS BACK

  7. #247
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    If they didnt think they could sign Prado what makes the braves confident they can sign Upton?2 years of upton only correct? Basically 2 years of upton for 1 year of prado and specs

    What was meant for me will be Mine once again... THE CHAMP OF CHAMPS IS BACK

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    92 innings of shortstop. I thought you knew better than to say something like this.

    In over 1700 innings at 2nd he's cost about 10 runs on average (UZR). For comparison's sake, Jhonny Peralta has cost 8.4 runs on average in his career at shortstop. To say that Prado is worse at 2nd than Peralta is at SS is, well, Jeter level bad. It's worse than that. It's so bad that nobody has ever seriously thought about playing him there. Prado is just plain awful as a regular middle infielder. There was thought he might could get away with 2B because of offense, but that inspired so much confidence in the Braves that they gave Uggla a record contract for second basemen.

    So again, bad.
    And he is a -8 DRS where all the negatives came at the beginning of his career, he is a +3 DRS there in his last 950 innings which is not only the bulk of his time there, but also the most recent.

    The difference from second to short on the defensive spectrum? 5 runs.

    Meaning he would have been about a -2 DRS there in those 900 innings if he had played short. Give or take, depends on arm strength really going that direction.

    But wait.

    He has played third base, the arm strength in question....he's got it!

    How has he done at third base?

    +23 DRS in 1359.2 innings.

    Defensive spectrum move from third to short? -5 runs.

    Meaning the value of about +18 DRS in those 1300 innings, of which the bulk has come in the last 3 years, like the positive defensive value at second.


    Yes. He COULD play shortstop everyday. So could Ben Zobrist. Prado isn't necessarily going to be average or above average there. But he is certainly capable of it and could physically do it. And he could easily handle all the routine plays no problem. He has the range of an elite left fielder (saved 12 runs last year in almost 1000 innings) and has the arm strength to play the hot corner.

    Yes, he can play shortstop. Taking data from 2006 when he was 22 and using it to make an assumption about 2013 isn't going give you valuable information.

    So again, yes.

  9. #249
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    What an awful trade for the Dbacks.

    Let's put this in perspective - if you had said the Dbacks would have got this for Upton last year would anybody think it was a good deal?

    Absolutely not.

    Let's not pretend Upton isn't a year away from an MVP calibre season. Last year he hit 289/369/529 (139 wRC+) and for anybody who thinks that's a fluke he's posted another season with a 130 wRC+. He'll enter the year as a 25 year old so they're getting the prime years of an MVP calibre outfielder. And the best the D-Backs could get for him is an overrated by UZR, good but not elite player in Prado? The specs they got back weren't that great either.

    How Towers hasn't been fired yet is simply incredible.


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

    This sums up every sports interview, ever.

  10. #250
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    Prado is a fine third basemen, I didn't dispute that. But defensive adjustments don't work like that. The value is there, but you can't just take a player, subtract some (inherently flawed) counting integer and say that he'd be that adequate. If that were the case, Evan Longoria would be playing plus defense at short right now. Instead, the Rays went out and got a SS because Zobrist was quite bad defensively there (where he played a lot of innings last season).

    Anyone can play any position, so I'm not sure if you're making a tautological argument to waste my time and try to be cute or you really think baseball works like that.

  11. #251
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    Prado is nothing special. A glorified utility player.

    Dbacks got robbed.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



  12. #252
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    And just because the Braves used him one way doesn't mean he was used correctly.

    When Prado was called up they had Renteria

    Kelly Johnson and Yunel Escobar both showed up full time in 08, both were more highly regarded than Prado ever was.

    Prado wasn't given full time PA until 2010, and they didn't keep him consistently at second in the first place. Just because they went out and got Uggla doesn't mean they didn't believe in his ability to play second base.

    He didn't play short because the Braves had Renteria and Escobar. Renteria was the veteran in the middle of his career when Prado got called up, and Escobar was expected to be elite overall, and he showed flashes of that. I wouldn't start Prado over Escobar at short either. Escobar is great there defensively.
    Then Alex Gonzalez in 2011....another great defensive shortstop.

    There was no reason to play him at short, even though he COULD play there.

    You can't make assumptions based on the actions of the team and think that means they have dismissed a players ability to do something. That's making dangerously foolish assumptions.

    His skill set has shown he COULD play shortstop if he was expected to. He probably wouldn't be good, or maybe even not league average there. But it's a position around the league filled with elite, glove only defenders. Prado would get by there and be alright, and his bat would profile very well.

  13. #253
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    .

    The Diamondbacks want a certain type of player — single-minded, outwardly intense, fierce. Cody Ross is that kind of player. Martin Prado is that kind of player. Upton is not, at least not in the estimation of Diamondbacks GM Kevin Towers and manager Kirk Gibson.

    “The problem is that he didn’t play with a high level of energy,” said one of Upton’s former teammates who spoke on the condition that he would not be identified. “What I think they want is guys who play with the speed, energy and intensity of the Oregon football team — all out, all the time.
    http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/q...t-stove-012413

    I don't know if there are actually any DBack fans on here, but yeah, it must suck when your organization is run with that kind of mentality.
    2013

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by flea View Post
    Prado is a fine third basemen, I didn't dispute that. But defensive adjustments don't work like that. The value is there, but you can't just take a player, subtract some (inherently flawed) counting integer and say that he'd be that adequate. If that were the case, Evan Longoria would be playing plus defense at short right now. Instead, the Rays went out and got a SS because Zobrist was quite bad defensively there (where he played a lot of innings last season).

    Anyone can play any position, so I'm not sure if you're making a tautological argument to waste my time and try to be cute or you really think baseball works like that.
    Not every player can profile at multiple positions.

    Prado isn't some bulky, slow corner player. He can the middle positions because of his range, and he has the arm strength to play third.

    Not every third basemen can play shortstop. Not every second basemen can play shortstop. But Prado has the abilities of each that profile up the middle.

    He is the exact same size as Jose Reyes and has the arm strength and range to play the position. We aren't moving Ryan Zimmerman over to short here who is 6'3, 230. This is a versatile and rangey guy.

    By the way on Zobrist

    http://www.draysbay.com/2012/11/30/3...t-play-in-2013

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    Prado is nothing special. A glorified utility player.

    Dbacks got robbed.
    Prado is better. Just ask Jeffy.

    Our QB > Yours

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