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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnewkirk View Post
    an elbow isnt pointy? most cuts happen because of elbows. i dont understand how you think having some padding on there would create more cuts. so in that logic having no gloves would mean less cuts right? im pretty sure there would be a lot more blood if it was bare knuckles.
    I apologize for going completely OT:

    I'm not knocking you, but if you walked into any gym tomorrow and asked if equipment caused cuts - you may be surprised by the answers. In reality, it's all simple physics.

    First, let's analyze where the power from an elbow comes from, how it is transferred, and what happens when the technique is applied. The power of any strike is channeled through a surface area to a given target. A sharp elbow has nothing to do with the physical sharpness of an elbow - it's the precision of the strike channeled through a singular point of the elbow. Are some elbows "sharper" than others? Sure, but I would wager that if you were to go sampling fighter's elbows and took measurements, I don't think there would be significant difference - the real changes come with years of training and technique.

    Now, as you are reading this, go ahead and pantomime the types of elbow strikes you have seen in and do so in slow motion - now throw your shoulder into the motion and take careful note of the movement of the tip of your elbow. There's a natural follow-through to the motion that creates point to point contact with the target and then your elbow travels as your shoulder and hips continue to rotate - the point of the elbow still contacted with the target and likely following through. This creates two vectors of force on the target, one being the impact into say an eyebrow/orbital/skull and then another representing the torque of the follow-through pulling at the skin.

    Now, this is where friction takes over. It's far worse to get hit with an elbow early in a fight compared to later because of the lack of sweat lubricating the surface contact. The same can be applied to the ease of escaping grapples, etc. That doesn't, however, remove friction from the equation. In the atypical ground-and-pound situation - elbows can land with the additional force due to the inertia of the target (ie. a head on a mat) amplifying the distension of the skin when the blow is landed (the elbow actually presses the skin to the skull more tightly), adding extra stress to the surface amplifying the damage done on any slight lateral motion. (The vectors aren't additive, but the stress on the skin's surface is amplified).

    Now lets visit the subject of guards, padding, gloves, etc. First, the premise of the lightweight MMA glove has less to do with limiting damage done to an opponent than mitigating damage done to the structure of the hand. Bare knuckled fights are typically bloodier because a face AND a persons hand are likely getting torn to shreds. No matter what type/style of glove or padding, there are places where a surface, seam, tie, etc. will be able to cut skin akin to a paper cut. Ask anyone who has sparred or revisit any number of fights where the padding, not the blow - caused the cut. In boxing it happens quite frequently with the stitching on the glove, but it also happens off the smooth side of the thumb. That's because in a glancing situation, the surface of the glove may actually alter as though it were acting under the influence of a pressure wave and cut at the skins surface like a knife's edge (remember the smaller the point of contact, the stronger the forces in that localized area of contact).

    Now apply the same properties to the motion of the elbow strike, replacing the fist with an elbow, glove with a pad, and then amplify the forces (not because of the length of fulcrum) but speed and duration at which an elbow strike is in contact with the skin - and it doesn't become so difficult to understand how elbow strikes, EVEN when missing, still have a chance to cut someone open. That can be said of every pad on the market from Windy, to Fairtex, and even the top-tier Venum elbow wraps (and they are nice). Now take it one step further and ask yourself if there is more or less friction in the following situation; sweaty skin on sweaty skin as compared to artificial surface on sweaty skin and I think you have answered whether friction increases or decreases.

    That said, there is the benefit of the padding in that the blunt force trauma of a strike is lessened proportionally to the amount of padding between the elbow and target's surface. The same effect is why cars have air-bags. It also works both ways, preventing elbow injury from repeated strikes/contact. As someone who has trained for a couple years, I can say that elbow pads, knee pads, and shin pads - hell, sparring gear in general - is for the benefit of reducing structural damage due to striking repeatedly than to prevent cutting/scrapes/tears/and "burns."

    The tl;dr - elbow padding will cause more cuts.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by zn23 View Post
    He would probably finish LAY Guida in a rematch.
    Lol

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  3. #123
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    Very nice read Topsy.

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  4. #124
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    There are also different kinds of elbow pads. Some have a hard plastic cup. That plastic cup would do real damage. Some are just padding that could slide on arm. You would have to look at which kind of pad. You would have to look at how it would be secured in place. Also would have to consider if it would make some types of bjj submissions easier or harder.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite no matter what their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful poster please do not expect a reply.

  5. #125
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    Something interesting I found:

    The Judge Who Scored Guida vs. Hioki 30-27 Is Also Clay's Facebook 'Friend'

    Ever wonder what an athletic commission considers a conflict of interest?

    It’s a question running amok in my brain as I type and mull over last weekend’s featherweight bout between Clay Guida and Hatsu Hioki.

    Guida took home a split decision nod over Hioki after three tough rounds.

    The bout was certainly a closely contested match. But by the 10-point must system in which the UFC abides, it’s relatively easy to understand how Clay Guida exited the cage victorious, despite being out-struck by a tally of 74-40 (according to Fightmetric) and having half of his takedown attempts thwarted.

    Clay obtained and secured top position for extended stretches of the fight, and regardless of how active a fighter is or isn’t from his back, the common misconception among uninformed judges is that the man on top is winning the fight by default.

    Fair enough, I’m not outraged by the outcome, despite having scored the fight in Hioki’s favor by one point. I can understand why Guida was afforded the win, whether I agree with it or not, and I’m not out to slight Guida or his in-cage efforts.

    However, one must wonder: at what point does an athletic commission, or those assigned the task of overseeing a MMA event, examine the deeper relationships between appointed judges and the fighters whose fights they score?

    Both Gabriel Sabaitis (the judge who scored the bout a clean sweep, 30-27 in Guida’s favor) and Clay Guida are Illinois representatives. Fair enough, UFC on FOX 6 was hosted by the United Center in Chicago, Illinois. It’s not baffling to know that the Chicago Sports Commission would employ the services of a local judge.

    But the relationship between Guida and Sabaitis stretches a bit more. See, Sabaitis and Guida are also “Facebook friends.” Big deal, you ask? Maybe, maybe not.

    From a neutral stance, it seems a bit questionable that a man assigned the task of judging two fights on one card would just so happen to draw a bout featuring a hometown favorite. It also seems a bit questionable that no one would question the depth of Sabaitis and Guida’s relationship, given their online status as acquaintances.

    Does Gabriel really know Clay? It’s tough to say. For all we know, the two may have never shared any communication other than a “friend accept” in the vast expanse of the interwebs. But if a commission aims to ensure fair judging, it seems as though a hint of research might ensue prior to assigning judges specific tasks.

    Questionable situations such as the one we currently eye could easily be avoided with a few Google searches.

    Standing here, on the outside looking in, I'm forced to admit that appointing Gabriel Sabaitis as one of three judges set to score Clay Guida’s fight looks a little suspect. Sabaitis’ questionable scoring (again, a reminder that Gabriel was the only judge who seemed to feel Hatsu Hioki didn’t do enough to secure a single round) only raises further question marks and eyebrows.

    Did Gabriel give Hatsu a fair shake? Furthermore, did the commission afford Hatsu a fair shake?

    I’m not here to accuse anyone of misconduct. Don’t misconstrue this piece. This is about raising awareness in regards to the judging system (and not just in Chicago) worldwide. Fighters invest every ounce of their being in the sport, the preparation for competition, competition itself and every subplot of the assignment (i.e., press, travel, public appearances, etc.) in between. I think they certainly deserve to have an unbiased eye overseeing their work in the cage.

    The question now becomes this: did Hatsu Hioki receive three pairs of unbiased eyes to judge his bout with Clay Guida, or only two?

    For the record, all information revealed in this article, including the image, are publicly available. If you’ve got a Facebook page, you can view Gabriel’s page publicly, and you can view his friends as well. You’ll spot Clay in the lineup, and if he happens to disappear in the wake of this release, well, you’ve got an attached image that proves the two are FB buddies.
    Not sure what to make of this. I don't have a Facebook account, but I'm assuming if you have someone as your friend, then you have some sort of friendship with this person?

    If that's the case, wouldn't there be conflict of interest? This is just another example of how clueless MMA commissions are. MMA is so out of the loop when it comes to judges, refs and rules, that this type of oversight isn't surprising.

    I also found the reasoning behind his score of Round 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel Sabaitis
    "I felt all 3 rnds were real close. Guida has an awkward style to score. I felt his aggression and TD out weighed (barely) Hioki's effective striking in the 1st. I also marginally gave him rnds 2&3...barely. But there's no half point scoring in MMA! There's 3 Judges for a reason. If both Judges gave it 29-28 Hioki and I gave it 30-27 Guida, then YES!! I am the new Cecil Peoples! But one DIDN'T!! And he's one of the most experienced Judges in the business!! He had it 29-28 Guida!! So that means he agrees with me more than the other Judge!! But this fight was so close it could've been 29-28 Hioki, no doubt. I respect everyone who believes Hioki won. I'm an open minded Judge, but I stand by my decision and it was made by using The MMA Judging Criteria NOT favoritism! My brother could be fighting and still wouldn't give him an undeserved decision!!!"
    A TD that didn't accomplish anything other than defend Hioki's submissions attacks, outweighs effective striking? Ugh, he's everything that's wrong with judging in MMA.
    -----

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    There are also different kinds of elbow pads. Some have a hard plastic cup. That plastic cup would do real damage. Some are just padding that could slide on arm. You would have to look at which kind of pad. You would have to look at how it would be secured in place. Also would have to consider if it would make some types of bjj submissions easier or harder.
    obviously it wouldnt be plastic.

  7. #127
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    it should be metal with lots of spikes all over it

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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knockturnal View Post
    A TD that didn't accomplish anything other than defend Hioki's submissions attacks, outweighs effective striking? Ugh, he's everything that's wrong with judging in MMA.
    His perspective is wrong, but the most infuriating thing for me is precisely the judges point, he wasn't the only one with as 'ludicrous of a scorecard' as people bemoan. Judging will always be flawed and will hopefully held to a higher standard, going forward. That some scorecards are off is never a surprise.

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