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  1. #31
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    The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced Vollmer is gone. His agent is Condon - well known for his hard line stance to get the most money, and several teams are looking at Vollmer as a LT. He could end up getting an offer of 5 years for $45M+, with at least $25 guaranteed - with no games played riders. The Pats cannot and should not match that sort of offer.

    I do not think Cannon is good enough to be a starting RT. I think they are wasting his time there, he should be the starting RG or LG and may get that job when one of the regulars falters. We need a RT in FA or the draft. So that will make either RT or DT the first pick if no deals are made.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  2. #32
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    Brady's deep ball is diminishing. Or at least severely regressed
    72. Since 2008, there have been 20 receivers with more than 65 targets of at least 21 yards downfield. The only one not to drop a deep ball? Brandon Lloyd (88 targets).

    73. Over the past two seasons, with Josh McDaniels as his head coach or primary offensive coordinator, Lloyd was the most targeted receiver on throws deeper than 20 yards downfield, with 73 such targets.
    74. Calvin Johnson was second with 64.
    Lloyd IS a deep throw receiver. I didn't see him run many deep go routs this year, but there's obviously a reason for that. If Brady showed success with the go's in practice, he'd be throwing them in the game. In all liklihood he didn't despite having one of the best deep ball receivers in the league

    BTW, Lloyd did that with Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, A.J. Feeley and Kellen Clemens.
    Last edited by Sportfan; 01-23-2013 at 02:09 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Sorry, but what Brady had available for deep throws - 15 yards+ down field (15 is deep? barely qualifies until you get to 25 and more) was above average, and his results were far below average. Looks a lot more like the QB to me. The only WR Brady has ever been very successful with downfield was Moss - and Moss talent wise is the greatest deep ball WR of all time. How do we know Brady was on target to him? Moss was able to correct his routes better than anyone I've seen in 46 years as a fan to get under the ball.

    Brady is 2nd all time in Int%. If Gronk and AH were healthy this year all year, we would have shattered the 2007 teams all time scoring record. Why does anybody with an ounce of sense want Brady to throw long, when he is doing fine at what he does, and the evidence since 2010 indicates he isn't good at it anyway?
    Moss had more talent in one arm than any other receiver Brady threw to. Impossible for any QB to have a great deep game without deep options, like you said a wideout who can correct his routes and gain position on the football to make the catch is needed. Any of those guys on the roster? Gronk can do it with the best but lacks the speed.

    Need to add speed and size to the WR opposite Lloyd - whether Welker is back or not. And I don't want them to be a vertical passing team just add another dimension to a weakness in their seemingly already balanced offense.

    The more I look at it, the more I'm convinced Vollmer is gone. His agent is Condon - well known for his hard line stance to get the most money, and several teams are looking at Vollmer as a LT. He could end up getting an offer of 5 years for $45M+, with at least $25 guaranteed - with no games played riders. The Pats cannot and should not match that sort of offer.

    I do not think Cannon is good enough to be a starting RT. I think they are wasting his time there, he should be the starting RG or LG and may get that job when one of the regulars falters. We need a RT in FA or the draft. So that will make either RT or DT the first pick if no deals are made.
    Your probably right with the contract. Franchise tag might be useful, we can't use it on Welker and no way any team is paying Tailb 10m/season. Conditional 3rd also might be useful.
    Last edited by Patriot Pride; 01-23-2013 at 03:09 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot Pride View Post
    Moss had more talent in one arm than any other receiver Brady threw to. Impossible for any QB to have a great deep game without deep options, like you said a wideout who can correct his routes and gain position on the football to make the catch is needed. Any of those guys on the roster? Gronk can do it with the best but lacks the speed.
    Answered in post #33. Lloyd is such a guy, and what happened? Doesn't appear to be Lloyd's fault.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Answered in post #33. Lloyd is such a guy, and what happened? Doesn't appear to be Lloyd's fault.
    I still think there are other symptoms...

    You think Brady IS the 29th ranked QB throwing 15+ downfield? Or could there be other factors that led to this?

    Perhaps the threats opposite Lloyd could not get down field. Welker, AH, Gronk, Woodhead, Branch, Edelman and Vereen have all lined up opposite him and none could stretch the field.

    If we are gonna roll with 2 TE and a HB a lot then it would make sense to not have Welker on the field because Gronk/AH/HB are already limited to short-intermediate routes like him.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriot Pride View Post
    I still think there are other symptoms...

    You think Brady IS the 29th ranked QB throwing 15+ downfield? Or could there be other factors that led to this?

    Perhaps the threats opposite Lloyd could not get down field. Welker, AH, Gronk, Woodhead, Branch, Edelman and Vereen have all lined up opposite him and none could stretch the field.

    If we are gonna roll with 2 TE and a HB a lot then it would make sense to not have Welker on the field because Gronk/AH/HB are already limited to short-intermediate routes like him.
    I won't argue that we'd be better off with a 6' 3" WR than Welker - in particular if we sign Edelman. However, I can't see BB drafting a good one high up. We'll get a FA, but not a top shelf deep threat, more of a possession guy that's going to get 95% of his throws inside of 20 yards.

    I'm just surprised that serious Pats fans can't see Brady's issues with the deep ball these past few years. While Lloyd tends to get no YAC, Welker, AH, and Gronk get lots of YAC, almost making for a deep passing game to some extent.

    Also and very clearly, with AH and Gronk all of last year, this team sets the all time scoring record for a 16 game season, and probably takes the average points per game #1 as well. I mean, how much is wrong? The Pats have a tremendously deep receiving corps.

    Next year with Ballard making the scene, like I wrote earlier, AH can end up being the tall WR across from Lloyd, with Edleman/other guy in slot, and Gronk and Ballard or Gronk and a back. It may or may not be the best rec corps in the league, but it would have to be top 3. Seeing as Branch and Stallworth are toast, and Welker is likely to be gone, go ahead and get 1 or probably 2 WR's (one depth, one possible starter). But we won't sign Wallace or Bowe. Very expensive toys that may well not figure out the game here, and whose deep capability is liable not to be used even if they do figure it out.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    Pay Talib the average of the top 5 CB's in the NFL (~$10M) for a guy with injury and behavior problems? Man, I'm glad you are not the GM.

    We gave Bodden $24M for 4 years with $14M upfront. $3.5M guaranteed and $6M total is plenty enough for Talib. If we want to take a shot long term. Or we could go for $7.5M for one year.

    Yes, I know it's 10 million. It's also no commitment, and he has to play for it. No way is he signing a one year 7.5 million dollar deal. I'd franchise him, keep him for next year then he walks and try to Draft another corner in the next 2 years. I seem to recall BB doing the exact same thing with Samuel, then drafting McCourty.
    Last edited by holywack17; 01-24-2013 at 08:22 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    I won't argue that we'd be better off with a 6' 3" WR than Welker - in particular if we sign Edelman. However, I can't see BB drafting a good one high up. We'll get a FA, but not a top shelf deep threat, more of a possession guy that's going to get 95% of his throws inside of 20 yards.

    I'm just surprised that serious Pats fans can't see Brady's issues with the deep ball these past few years. While Lloyd tends to get no YAC, Welker, AH, and Gronk get lots of YAC, almost making for a deep passing game to some extent.

    Also and very clearly, with AH and Gronk all of last year, this team sets the all time scoring record for a 16 game season, and probably takes the average points per game #1 as well. I mean, how much is wrong? The Pats have a tremendously deep receiving corps.

    Next year with Ballard making the scene, like I wrote earlier, AH can end up being the tall WR across from Lloyd, with Edleman/other guy in slot, and Gronk and Ballard or Gronk and a back. It may or may not be the best rec corps in the league, but it would have to be top 3. Seeing as Branch and Stallworth are toast, and Welker is likely to be gone, go ahead and get 1 or probably 2 WR's (one depth, one possible starter). But we won't sign Wallace or Bowe. Very expensive toys that may well not figure out the game here, and whose deep capability is liable not to be used even if they do figure it out.
    I agree and as much as it pains me to say it, the one thing Brady does not do at an elite level anymore is throw the deep ball. Along the lines of what you've said in previous posts Bags, Moss is the greatest deep threat of all-time. I mean honestly, look at how dominant the guy has been throughout his career and then look at the QB's that have thrown to him other than Brady. The best of the bunch is probably Daunte Cullpepper, yes Daunte Cullpepper. You really do not need to be all that accurate when you have a deep threat who creates 5-10 yards in separation on deep balls and can't be overthrown.

    I like the idea of letting go of Welker and playing Hernandez opposite Lloyd as a possession receiver type. He is much better after the catch than most possession receivers are and I think the fact that he would be blocking less would minimize the risk of freak injuries such as the one he had this year with Ridley rolling over his ankle. Next year, I'd like to see Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd be the primary targets with a mixture of Ballard, Edelman and the HB's splitting up the snaps as the 4th and 5th targets.

    Patriots Forum Hall of Fame Class of 2013
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  9. #39
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    More Patriots FA stuff:

    link

    Patriots free agents by tiers
    February, 5, 2013
    Feb 5
    1:05
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    By Field Yates | ESPNBoston.com

    Former NFL general manager and current ESPN Analyst Bill Polian has unveiled his top 100 free agents (Insider content), and in doing so he tiers the players into three different levels.

    His "A" players are those he deems worthy of big, staring-caliber contracts, the "B" players are those who he would sign only if the value makes sense, and "C" players are those he would sign to short-term, inexpensive contracts.

    Using Polian's system as a jumping-off point, we've decided to come up with a list of Patriots free agents, broken down by "A", "B" and "C" tiers below.

    Tier A Players
    WR Wes Welker: His production is unmatched; the question is just how high the team is willing to go in terms of dollars.

    RT Sebastian Vollmer: Right tackle traditionally isn't a big-money position, but Vollmer is one of the best in the game. Will the team tread lightly because of back concerns?

    CB Aqib Talib: Cornerbacks get paid in free agency, and Talib may be the best available. Did he do enough over a few months for the team to invest in him again, be it on a short or long-term deal?

    Tier B Players
    WR Julian Edelman: If Welker leaves, Edelman's value could increase. He is an excellent punt returner and continually improving offensive player.

    RB Danny Woodhead: A part-time starter and involved running back, Woodhead took 34.1 percent of the snaps in 2012. The team may feel that they have a comparable player in Shane Vereen.

    CB Kyle Arrington: Probably best in a nickel cornerback role, Arrington had an up-and-down 2012.

    TE Michael Hoomanawanui: With long-term investments in Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, the Patriots aren't looking for a starting tight end, but insurance. "Hooman" is a restricted free agent.

    G Donald Thomas: A starting caliber guard who stepped up in injury situations last season.

    LB Tracy White: A core special teamer who also can play in sub defense.

    S Patrick Chung: Could hardly get on the field in the AFC Championship. Seems like he's run his course as a Patriot.

    CB Marquice Cole: A strong special teams player, but struggled as a nickel corner in the AFC Championship.

    DE Trevor Scott: The Patriots have big-time depth at defensive end, but Scott could be back as a veteran presence.

    Tier C Players
    WR Deion Branch: A quiet 2012, but has value in the locker room.

    LB Niko Koutovides: A steady core special teamer.

    WR Donte' Stallworth: Re-signed late in the season, and could be back for another shot to beef up the receiving corps.

    DB Derrick Martin: Another special teams presence.

    OL Jamey Richard: Spent 2012 on the injured reserve list.

    DB Will Allen: Worked at both safety and cornerback during the preseason but spent the year on the injured reserve list.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by bagwell368 View Post
    ...I'm just surprised that serious Pats fans can't see Brady's issues with the deep ball these past few years...
    I see it, but I am not sure what the real problem is. I believe it could be who he is as a player and not actually an inability to throw the deep ball. What I mean is his game is read the defense and for the most part play a high percentage game taking advantage of mismatches. Because he plays that way, the deep ball is less than high percentage. It could be, he is lacking the courage to throw the ball into coverage, something that is necessary to those that throw the deep ball. His DNA just starts to rule out such things. He makes up for it in other area of his game. And, he is always among the league leaders in least amount of INTs.

    So, that is the price the Patriots pay for Tom Brady.

    Not saying good or bad, just, it is what it is.

  11. #41
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    Keep

    Julian Edelman
    Aqib Talib
    Sebastian Vollmer
    Wes Welker
    Deion Branch
    Patrick Chung
    Danny Wood head

    Get rid of everyone else.
    20+ years from now I and others will look back @WMXXX and say remember when Brock Beat The Undertaker? More people will remember his only loss more than those 21 Straight wins.

  12. #42
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    Branch and chung are terrible. Them being gone already makes the patriots better.

  13. #43
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    Chung is still above average/kinda good in run coverage, but his pass coverage though is pretty bad.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by yankeefan54 View Post
    Branch and chung are terrible. Them being gone already makes the patriots better.
    Branch is only bad because the team is always signing him and releasing him over & over again. I don't think Chung is all that bad ok he's droped a few catches he should of caught but a lot of people have bad days.
    20+ years from now I and others will look back @WMXXX and say remember when Brock Beat The Undertaker? More people will remember his only loss more than those 21 Straight wins.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSF101 View Post
    Branch is only bad because the team is always signing him and releasing him over & over again. I don't think Chung is all that bad ok he's droped a few catches he should of caught but a lot of people have bad days.
    Branch is old and slow. They keep releasing him for a reason. Chung cannot cover.

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