Is TD obviously better than KG?

[bagwell368]

Around here the thoughts are generally:

1. KG is a a punk, TD is a gentleman, he's better anyhow

2. KG sucks in the playoffs

Well, by Win Shares, KG is better than Duncan, not by much, but by a bit (career or peak 10 years), but TD has KG by WS/48 by more.

Win Shares == wins. Everyone knows KG's Wolves were worse than the Spurs. In KG's 10 best WS regular seasons his teams averaged 52.6 wins and Duncans teams averaged 56.5. Run the WS each earned during those 10 years (KG 134.3 > TD 132.6) you get TD contributed 92.2% as much as KG did to his teams wins.

As for playoffs, most of his teams had poor seeding, so they didn't win a lot of games. He also got a lot more attention than Duncan defensively in most cases since his teammates on average were weaker until he got to the Celts.

If I needed a 5/4 I'd take Duncan, a 4/5 I'd take Garnett - can't go wrong either way. I think both are top 14 all time or better.

Malone might have the Win Shares going for him, but his defense wasn't good enough to rank #1 or #2 among PF's (Duncan still has more games played as PF, not at C - and he didn't forget how to play it). I'd take both over Malone or any other PF.

Comments?

[Raidaz4Life]

I think Malone's D is pretty underrated. It's not at the level of KG and Duncan but it is only about a tier behind. And regardless of what people say he was a far more natural and versatile offensive player than KG/Duncan. I also think they should be penalized on their PF rankings for switching to center. I still consider Malone the best PF of all time all things considered the same way I consider Stockton to be the best PG of all time.

Keep in mind me saying he is the best PF of all time and saying he is the best player to play the PF position are completely different things.

[DDynO]

I think Malone's D is pretty underrated. It's not at the level of KG and Duncan but it is only about a tier behind. And regardless of what people say he was a far more natural and versatile offensive player than KG/Duncan. I also think they should be penalized on their PF rankings for switching to center. I still consider Malone the best PF of all time all things considered the same way I consider Stockton to be the best PG of all time.

Keep in mind me saying he is the best PF of all time and saying he is the best player to play the PF position are completely different things.

Why do you think Malone was better than Duncan?? Do you really think Stockton was better than the Magic Man? Just curious, not trying to start anything.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Duncan has and always will **** on KG. It's really not that close.

[bagwell368]

Duncan has and always will **** on KG. It's really not that close.

Thanks biased SAS fan, just what I was trying to avoid.

KG and TD are very close career wise, and if you look at TD's down years with KG on SAS for his career instead it's actually quite easy to see a KG led SAS team winning one more title than TD did with SAS.

[DDynO]

Tim Duncan has always been better. He is a top 10 all time player no question. KG has had a great career, no doubt. Tim Duncan always rose to the occasion when needed and made all of his teammates better. Just an unbelievable will and always got the job done.

[bagwell368]

Tim Duncan has always been better. He is a top 10 all time player no question. KG has had a great career, no doubt. Tim Duncan always rose to the occasion when needed and made all of his teammates better. Just an unbelievable will and always got the job done.

Just more subjective/opinion blather. KG did not play on teams nearly as good as Duncan. Not only would SAS win the titles they got with Duncan if KG was there instead, but in 2006 and 2008 there was a great chance that they would have advanced at least a round further both times, and would have won at least one more title. That's how great KG was in that time frame over TD.

[Blackheart1]

Yes

[KnicksorBust]

Duncah is clearly superior. He won 4x as many titles as KG while playing with a comparable crew. KG didn't win till he had Pierce/Allen/Rondo. Duncan won with a past his prime C and in his later career with all-star guards.

[LordJohn]

Not obviously, but I'd take Duncan by a decent margin. KG's obviously a better rebounder (but it's not like Duncan's a slouch there) and he was more versatile and could do more things with the ball, which automatically makes him more valuable in some respects. He averaged 6 assists a game one year. Their shooting/scoring stats were pretty close, but Duncan has 3 of the 4 highest PPG seasons between the two of them. The main difference is that I just think Duncan is a better defender. He's lead the league in defensive win shares 5 times, compared to zero times for Garnett. Duncan had better defensive ratings (DRtg) when they were both in their primes, although Duncan's has slipped a little more than Garnett's as they've aged. Still, it's pretty much a wash on offense, but if I had to choose I'd take Duncan, and I'm confident in saying that Duncan's a little better on defense, so I've got to go with him.

[DDynO]

It's hard for me to even consider KG higher than Timmy. Duncan was one of the best players in the NBA after his rookie year. He's the 2nd youngest finals MVP ever. Stuff like that is hard to overlook. The classic KG vs Duncan argument is that Timmy had a better cast than Garnett, which he did. Those teams didn't make Duncan great, Duncan made those spurs teams great. He's a top 10 all time great. Maybe Garnett would have more rings if he played with spurs, but we will never know.

[bagwell368]

Duncah is clearly superior. He won 4x as many titles as KG while playing with a comparable crew. KG didn't win till he had Pierce/Allen/Rondo. Duncan won with a past his prime C and in his later career with all-star guards.

What fakakta logic. Look at the players on SAS. Look at the records of the teams when KG was in Minny and TD was in SAS at the same time. Then take a shot at the WS of each compared to team total wins, and thne! OMG, TD isn't superior, he's just been playing on much better teams (until 2007) when the Celts evened it out a big, but again the Celts are sinking and not SAS - due in large part to the Coach and GM.

You need to run those rosters year by year both ways, you are usually more well informed than this.

[bagwell368]

Not obviously, but I'd take Duncan by a decent margin. KG's obviously a better rebounder (but it's not like Duncan's a slouch there) and he was more versatile and could do more things with the ball, which automatically makes him more valuable in some respects. He averaged 6 assists a game one year. Their shooting/scoring stats were pretty close, but Duncan has 3 of the 4 highest PPG seasons between the two of them. The main difference is that I just think Duncan is a better defender. He's lead the league in defensive win shares 5 times, compared to zero times for Garnett. Duncan had better defensive ratings (DRtg) when they were both in their primes, although Duncan's has slipped a little more than Garnett's as they've aged. Still, it's pretty much a wash on offense, but if I had to choose I'd take Duncan, and I'm confident in saying that Duncan's a little better on defense, so I've got to go with him.

Well, at least you are tyring to be fair. KG until the Celts was much more a focus on D by other teams then TD since SAS had complete teams and SAS did not. DWS has to do with wins. Go ahead and compare KG and TD year in and year out once KG was a starter and both played (pre Celtics). Now take the WS of each and compare to team wins by division. Oh..... WS is directly related to wins, Minny sucked far more than SAS. DRtg tells the story much better then win shares here.

Actually I like Duncan better on offense (not passing) then KG because of his low post offensive. KG is good at it, but doesn't do it enough IMO. On D, KG is a better player, and can cover better away from the basket IMO.

[bagwell368]

It's hard for me to even consider KG higher than Timmy. Duncan was one of the best players in the NBA after his rookie year. He's the 2nd youngest finals MVP ever. Stuff like that is hard to overlook. The classic KG vs Duncan argument is that Timmy had a better cast than Garnett, which he did. Those teams didn't make Duncan great, Duncan made those spurs teams great. He's a top 10 all time great. Maybe Garnett would have more rings if he played with spurs, but we will never know.

I can understand that. I have no time now, but later I'll post more comparisons that try and EQ for SAS being superior to Minny.

[Raidaz4Life]

Why do you think Malone was better than Duncan?? Do you really think Stockton was better than the Magic Man? Just curious, not trying to start anything.

I do. Once again goes back to believing Stockton was the better PG but Magic was the better player. Stockton is probably the only one equal to Magic in terms of distributing and creating shots for his teammates. However, Stockton was a more efficient offensive player, and better defender. He also logged 400 more games at the position which should also be taken into account.