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  1. #1
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    The Last Offseason Talking Place

    doubt we get much run here.

  2. #2
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    so close to ST

  3. #3
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    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  4. #4
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    Lets just get the season started! We need Hultzen, Zunino, walker etc asap

  5. #5
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    This isn’t “new stats versus old stats”, or “stats versus scouts”, or “insiders versus outsiders”, or any kind of argument that can be broken down along those lines. This is simply fact-based evidence. And that evidence simply refutes the idea that the Mariners are better off improving their offense, even if they have to sacrifice a greater number of runs prevented in order to make that improvement.

    The “more power, more runs scored” approach to team building is simply incorrect. It doesn’t work. It doesn’t win games. Outscoring your opponent wins games. That’s the only thing the Mariners should care about.
    http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/01/18...-run-is-a-run/

    They are losing runs in this deal if Morse plays in the outfield. At least with Jaso, he was DH or catching (I don't know how catcher defense really correlates to runs prevented).

  6. #6
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    I hope we don't resign him. Hopefully we can work something out at the trade deadline? Like we did with Lee. It's like a fall back option that might save Jack's job.

    Playstation 3 handle: Ryde4Life

  7. #7
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    Thats if he shreds this year..

    Playstation 3 handle: Ryde4Life

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iansnightout View Post
    http://www.ussmariner.com/2013/01/18...-run-is-a-run/

    They are losing runs in this deal if Morse plays in the outfield. At least with Jaso, he was DH or catching (I don't know how catcher defense really correlates to runs prevented).
    I know I'm but you keep neglecting the "fact" that Jaso's future here was limited. It really won't be long until he would be relegated to platoon DH duties, and at that he would be in a deep mix of guys fighting for DH ABs. Why is this so hard for people to understand and accept...? I mean once you can accept that fact, then the trade isn't nearly as bad... then its not just about who is a better player, but who can offer the most overall, given their projected opportunities to contribute.

    "Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Abraham Lincoln

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamraMaan View Post
    I know I'm but you keep neglecting the "fact" that Jaso's future here was limited. It really won't be long until he would be relegated to platoon DH duties, and at that he would be in a deep mix of guys fighting for DH ABs. Why is this so hard for people to understand and accept...? I mean once you can accept that fact, then the trade isn't nearly as bad... then its not just about who is a better player, but who can offer the most overall, given their projected opportunities to contribute.
    I don't think the issue is what Jaso's role would be, now or in the future, it's the fact that Jaso is underrated/undervalued. Catchers in general are valuable. If we were going to trade him fine, I think people just wish we could have gotten something more useful in return.

    A SP?
    An actual outfielder?
    A utility guy that can play OF and IF?

    Nope, another DH/defensive nightmare.

    Even with Zunino coming, we still need another catcher now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseball_is_lif View Post
    I don't think the issue is what Jaso's role would be, now or in the future, it's the fact that Jaso is underrated/undervalued. Catchers in general are valuable. If we were going to trade him fine, I think people just wish we could have gotten something more useful in return.

    A SP?
    An actual outfielder?
    A utility guy that can play OF and IF?

    Nope, another DH/defensive nightmare.

    Even with Zunino coming, we still need another catcher now.
    This is what ppl aren't getting. Just cause u got rid of a guy who was running out of space to play and got someone who hits hrs in return doesn't make it ok. We should have gotten someone good in return. Someone with value to the team that wasnt another DH.

  11. #11
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    even in a limited role jaso coulda had really nice value in '14,'15 he coulda been a backup C, a spot DH to play in favorable matchups... he woulda made good insurance if someone goes down, and with his success in late innings he coulda made a solid PH...
    Last edited by Rain City; 01-21-2013 at 10:40 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamraMaan View Post
    I know I'm but you keep neglecting the "fact" that Jaso's future here was limited. It really won't be long until he would be relegated to platoon DH duties, and at that he would be in a deep mix of guys fighting for DH ABs. Why is this so hard for people to understand and accept...? I mean once you can accept that fact, then the trade isn't nearly as bad... then its not just about who is a better player, but who can offer the most overall, given their projected opportunities to contribute.
    This philosophy is also known as losing a trade out of desperation.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by baseball_is_lif View Post
    I don't think the issue is what Jaso's role would be, now or in the future, it's the fact that Jaso is underrated/undervalued. Catchers in general are valuable. If we were going to trade him fine, I think people just wish we could have gotten something more useful in return.

    A SP?
    An actual outfielder?
    A utility guy that can play OF and IF?

    Nope, another DH/defensive nightmare.

    Even with Zunino coming, we still need another catcher now.
    Name the other GMs who would have given us the value that Beane would give... I mean to get what we got we basically had to work with Beane, a guy who would rightfully value Jaso, which in comparison to other GMs equates to "overvaluing" him. Don't forget that Jaso is a sub-par catcher defensively (not what GMs want from their backup), and an obvious platoon guy, which essentially pigeon holes him as a platoon DH. Platoon DH types don't garner exceptional value in any way on any market... they just don't. To get what we got, we had to be dealing with an AL GM who thinks like Beane... which more or less limits it to Beane. He's the only guy who will trade fair value for Jaso simply because of that OBP, BB% and K%, then forget about his lack of power at the DH position.

    Given all of that, I have a feeling he wouldn't have given the same package to us that he gave to the Nats, unless he's honestly down on those specs. I think Beane pulled the trigger because he saw us getting Morse in it, who is not the prototypical Moneyball player... so Beane saw us getting the worse part of the deal, just like a lot of other people think. But realize that Beane was our only legit trade partner, the only one willing to give this kind of value. I do not believe any other GM out there would have given us the same, and certainly not better. Its not like we had a bidding war for Jaso's powerless platoon DH capabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by FWBrodie View Post
    This philosophy is also known as losing a trade out of desperation.
    Its also known as seeing the value of a player in a given market, and taking advantage of his relative trade value when its at its highest. Diminishing role = diminishing stats and production = diminishing value.... from a player with limited value as it was (only a few AL GMs would value him like you all are).
    Last edited by CamraMaan; 01-21-2013 at 07:38 PM.

    "Better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt" - Abraham Lincoln

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWBrodie View Post
    This philosophy is also known as losing a trade out of desperation.
    Bingo bango

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CamraMaan View Post
    Its also known as seeing the value of a player in a given market, and taking advantage of his relative trade value when its at its highest. Diminishing role = diminishing stats and production = diminishing value.... from a player with limited value as it was (only a few AL GMs would value him like you all are).
    It's like trading an autographed game worn white Ken Griffey Jr. jersey for an autographed replica teal Ken Griffey Jr. jersey because you really want a teal one. Horrible decision in terms of value, but is the quickest fix to your problem.

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