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  1. #61
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    I think everyone here really has the same wants for the Mets.
    We all love to develop our own prospects, but we all know that you can't win without signing a few players to round out the team.
    It's just everyone saying things in different ways, some have blind faith, some have no faith.

    We all know you can't win on just home grown players, and we can't just sign free agents at every position.

    So far, Sandy hasn't signed anyone good, if he keeps it up for a couple of years, then there will still be people with blind faith for the future, and others who will want him gone.

    In reality if he doesn't spend, then it's because of the Wipons, and we will never win.NEVER.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    Not even the chocolate bobka?
    Especially not the chocolate babka. If anything, you could make a case for the cinnamon babka but most certainly not the chocolate.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmantrash View Post
    I think everyone here really has the same wants for the Mets.
    We all love to develop our own prospects, but we all know that you can't win without signing a few players to round out the team.

    It's just everyone saying things in different ways, some have blind faith, some have no faith.

    We all know you can't win on just home grown players, and we can't just sign free agents at every position.

    So far, Sandy hasn't signed anyone good, if he keeps it up for a couple of years, then there will still be people with blind faith for the future, and others who will want him gone.

    In reality if he doesn't spend, then it's because of the Wipons, and we will never win.NEVER.


    Some people believe what has been implied and only implied mind you, at best, (has SA ever stated they're gonna start spending in 2014? - I don't think he has), and others don't believe based on what's actually happened/ing, and the past history of the Coupon family.

    To me there is no evidence to support a real rebuild, or that they'll ever spend enough to finish the team off. I don't want to believe this, but I do, because I do know that the Coupons are cheats and liars and I know they don't care about my team, the ****** park they built conveyed their real thoughts about the Mets. The Coupons aren't interested in a dynasty, they never have been, they want to find the sweet spot between spending and return, that's even more true now. The only money they have spent since Jason Bay has been on their franchise player, who I believe they just could not afford to let go of (fan apocalypse, no cred left), in any case, DW's deal deal just gets covered by JS's departure, and they've loaded part of that deal onto 2014. It's a ton of money, but he's their money-maker, and it's not increased payroll at all because so much has come off (soon be close to $100M) - Beltran, Perez, Castillo, Wagner, JS, Reyes. RA, KROD et al

    There are Mets fans all over the place who are signing off of anything the Mets do right now, and making excuses they would never have dreamed of in the past, signing off throwing season after season away, being happy that their team has the worst OF and BP in the game, signing off on standing pat every off-season etc We actually have NY baseball fans who don't want their team to sign MLB FA's, even cheap short term ones, they actually now argue that it is better for the Mets to lose more baseball games.

    It's gone so far now that they don't even care how bad next years team is, they actually believe there is no point improving your team until you're already a WS contender. How do we get there? well, apparently it all just falls into place. By October 2014 (or is that 2015 now? - I can't keep up the year keeps changing) the team is on the somehow gone gone from 70 wins to on the cusp and then and only then therefore is it worth investing in. Just like that, with Sandy's magic beans washed down with his patented snake-oil, mmmm oily...

    It's like Stockholm Syndrome, we're all held captive by the Coupons and their disgusting and sickening ownership of the Mets and their never ending financial problems, and some Mets fans have started to pity the plight of the scummbags that are ruining our team. And they're doing that by signing off on any old junk they throw at us. Their cult hero Sandy Alderson, a man who so far has shown he's a brilliant PR man (so many are totally enthralled with him), has shown he can trade AS/CY type players for very good prospects, but little else.

    But he's the savior right?...let's see how he does now he's out of golden tickets.


    I think many Mets fans are just creating their own narratives from scraps SA throws down during his doublespeak speeches, that hint at everything, and say absolutely nothing. That's what a great PR man does, he lets you come to the conclusions you wish too, whatever they are.

    When SA leaves which will be pretty soon, and what we're left with is a cheap mediocre team that can win 80 games or so, (the dream Coupon model) but always has too many holes going into the season to ever be serious contenders, you might all then realize that SA has had all of your pants down.

    But of course, there's always 2016 and 2017 and 2018 right? - That's the great thing about the interminable rebuild, the future is always right rebound the corner, and as Mets fans that's a narrative we have all grown up with, second nature to us - 'We'll get 'em next year' 'Just wait until so and so develops and so and so comes up' 'We got unlucky with injuries, better luck next year'. We all understand this narrative and in a way many of comfortable with it.

    That's the thing with most Mets fans, it's never about winning today, it's all about dreaming about tomorrow.
    Last edited by Marty Mcfly; 01-22-2013 at 07:08 AM.

  4. #64
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    I think what Oldmantrash said is how most Met fans feel..

    It's grand they are looking for more long term stability in their farm system and to have more internal depth but money will have to be spent if they have any intention on winning in the future.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-22-2013 at 07:51 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldmantrash View Post
    I think everyone here really has the same wants for the Mets.
    We all love to develop our own prospects, but we all know that you can't win without signing a few players to round out the team.
    It's just everyone saying things in different ways, some have blind faith, some have no faith.

    We all know you can't win on just home grown players, and we can't just sign free agents at every position.

    So far, Sandy hasn't signed anyone good, if he keeps it up for a couple of years, then there will still be people with blind faith for the future, and others who will want him gone.

    In reality if he doesn't spend, then it's because of the Wipons, and we will never win.NEVER.

    I don't believe for one single that second that SA doesn't want to spend money to improve next years team, even with lower-end players who will help the Mets wins baseball games, no GM willingly tosses every season away. Fans may believe this is SA saving it all up for 2014, but it is not. He's not turning out the worst OF in the history of baseball because he's saving it all for the future, fans seem to think that money not spent this winter goes into a little jar marked 'Spend on FA's next year only'.

    What GM wants to be terrible? what GM wants to spend the next year ending off questions as to why the allowed the Mets to have a disgustingly awful OF when he said he had $$$ to spend? People in the media etc who will be throwing rotten fruit at SA this year, won't buy this 'no need to spend until we're already close' crap. They won't buy it because it is an absolutely ridiculous way to run a baseball team will already falling revenues, falling payroll and fan intransigence.

    You cannot truthfully believe this rubbish the Mets are peddling, you simply cannot.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    Some people believe what has been implied and only implied mind you, at best, (has SA ever stated they're gonna start spending in 2014? - I don't think he has), and others don't believe based on what's actually happened/ing, and the past history of the Coupon family.

    To me there is no evidence to support a real rebuild, or that they'll ever spend enough to finish the team off. I don't want to believe this, but I do, because I do know that the Coupons are cheats and liars and I know they don't care about my team, the ****** park they built conveyed their real thoughts about the Mets. The Coupons aren't interested in a dynasty, they never have been, they want to find the sweet spot between spending and return, that's even more true now. The only money they have spent since Jason Bay has been on their franchise player, who I believe they just could not afford to let go of (fan apocalypse, no cred left), in any case, DW's deal deal just gets covered by JS's departure, and they've loaded part of that deal onto 2014. It's a ton of money, but he's their money-maker, and it's not increased payroll at all because so much has come off (soon be close to $100M) - Beltran, Perez, Castillo, Wagner, JS, Reyes. RA, KROD et al

    There are Mets fans all over the place who are signing off of anything the Mets do right now, and making excuses they would never have dreamed of in the past, signing off throwing season after season away, being happy that their team has the worst OF and BP in the game, signing off on standing pat every off-season etc We actually have NY baseball fans who don't want their team to sign MLB FA's, even cheap short term ones, they actually now argue that it is better for the Mets to lose more baseball games.

    It's gone so far now that they don't even care how bad next years team is, they actually believe there is no point improving your team until you're already a WS contender. How do we get there? well, apparently it all just falls into place. By October 2014 (or is that 2015 now? - I can't keep up the year keeps changing) the team is on the somehow gone gone from 70 wins to on the cusp and then and only then therefore is it worth investing in. Just like that, with Sandy's magic beans washed down with his patented snake-oil, mmmm oily...

    It's like Stockholm Syndrome, we're all held captive by the Coupons and their disgusting and sickening ownership of the Mets and their never ending financial problems, and some Mets fans have started to pity the plight of the scummbags that are ruining our team. And they're doing that by signing off on any old junk they throw at us. Their cult hero Sandy Alderson, a man who so far has shown he's a brilliant PR man (so many are totally enthralled with him), has shown he can trade AS/CY type players for very good prospects, but little else.

    But he's the savior right?...let's see how he does now he's out of golden tickets.


    I think many Mets fans are just creating their own narratives from scraps SA throws down during his doublespeak speeches, that hint at everything, and say absolutely nothing. That's what a great PR man does, he lets you come to the conclusions you wish too, whatever they are.

    When SA leaves which will be pretty soon, and what we're left with is a cheap mediocre team that can win 80 games or so, (the dream Coupon model) but always has too many holes going into the season to ever be serious contenders, you might all then realize that SA has had all of your pants down.

    But of course, there's always 2016 and 2017 and 2018 right? - That's the great thing about the interminable rebuild, the future is always right rebound the corner, and as Mets fans that's a narrative we have all grown up with, second nature to us - 'We'll get 'em next year' 'Just wait until so and so develops and so and so comes up' 'We got unlucky with injuries, better luck next year'. We all understand this narrative and in a way many of comfortable with it.

    That's the thing with most Mets fans, it's never about winning today, it's all about dreaming about tomorrow.
    From Metsblog a month ago.

    In regards to whether he is ‘punting,’ in 2013, and only thinking of future seasons, Sandy Alderson told WFAN earlier this week:

    “I’m not that young, I’ve got to live through another year, and I don’t want to have an also-ran either. We’re gonna put something together that gives us a chance. And that’s our goal between now and the beginning of spring training. Will we knock your socks off with some high profile free agent? Probably not. But, we are getting close to the point where will be able to do that.”
    That certainly implies that we'll be in the market for top tier FA next year and beyond. Like we've said to you time and time again, the payroll will be roughly $45M or so next year, meaning there will be a ton of flexibility to spend. The Wilpons are not stupid enough to not spend money, because if they don't it will be highly suspicious that they have no money and will be forced to sell the team. Even if they only spend $35M or so in 2014, that should upgrade the team substanitally while still having payroll flexibility.

    I can understand why you are skeptical, because the Mets have never really done a full rebuild like this, we are so used to living in the "right now," so if we have to wait a few years to get what we want, we deem it as impossible. But that's obviously not the case with everyone, and some are able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Having a farm system full of quality pitching is a valuable commodity, and a good foundation for success in the future.

    Even if they traded Wright, they would have gotten blue chip prospects in return as well, and that would have made our chances of winning even greater 5 years from now, not to mention all the money they would have saved. Since they decided to keep him, we need to start aqcuiring pieces to help the team next season when the core is beginning to be established. This way we can build a consistent winner for years to come, instead of creating a short window(2006-2008) and suffering afterwords(2009-2013)

    The reason fans don't want to spend money for the sake of spending is because there is no one out there worth spending on that will help us long term. The last thing a rebuilding team needs is veterans taking playing time away from young players capable of success if given the opportunity. That's what Sandy has done this off-season. He's going to find out if one or more of Duda, Kirk, Valdespin, Baxter, Cowgill, Brown, etc can develop into quality players. I'd rather try and find out than give a guy like Scott Hairston a guarenteed spot to play everyday. That doesn't help anybody.

    The good thing about potentially sucking in 2013, is that they would have a Top 10 protected pick, which would make it easier for the Mets to go after top free agents, instead of losing their pick.

    Lets just say hypothetically, we won the WS in 2017. Would the rebuild be successful in your eyes? Doing what Sandy is doing now puts us in a better position to do that. I couldn't say that about the way Omar ran the team.

    Nobody said rebuilding would be easy. It requires patience, an open mind, and hope. It's definitely frustrating knowing that your team isn't going to be competitive, but at least the future looks brighter and I still get to watch my favorite team play my favorite sport.

  7. #67
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    “I’m not that young, I’ve got to live through another year, and I don’t want to have an also-ran either. We’re gonna put something together that gives us a chance. And that’s our goal between now and the beginning of spring training. Will we knock your socks off with some high profile free agent? Probably not. But, we are getting close to the point where will be able to do that.”



    I'll deal with SA first up.


    Typical snake oil Sandy. Says two things at once, we can, but we're not going to. Meaningless, he encourages you to infer what you wish too without him saying anything concrete, this is exactly what I alluded to in my post.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    “I’m not that young, I’ve got to live through another year, and I don’t want to have an also-ran either. We’re gonna put something together that gives us a chance. And that’s our goal between now and the beginning of spring training. Will we knock your socks off with some high profile free agent? Probably not. But, we are getting close to the point where will be able to do that.”



    I'll deal with SA first up.


    Typical snake oil Sandy. Says two things at once, we can, but we're not going to. Meaningless, he encourages you to infer what you wish too without him saying anything concrete, this is exactly what I alluded to in my post.
    No, he said we're getting close to the point where we will be able to do that. That means, he can't do it in 2013 because his hands are tied, but the removal of Bay and Santana will allow them to do that in 2014 and beyond.

  9. #69
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    That certainly implies that we'll be in the market for top tier FA next year and beyond. Like we've said to you time and time again, the payroll will be roughly $45M or so next year, meaning there will be a ton of flexibility to spend. The Wilpons are not stupid enough to not spend money, because if they don't it will be highly suspicious that they have no money and will be forced to sell the team. Even if they only spend $35M or so in 2014, that should upgrade the team substanitally while still having payroll flexibility.

    No-one, even me, has said they will spend $45M next year, I have said they will sign a player or two, they have to keep the charade moving forward a little, will they spend enough? no, they will do what they always do, just enough to give hope to the very optimistic.

    I can understand why you are skeptical, because the Mets have never really done a full rebuild like this, we are so used to living in the "right now," so if we have to wait a few years to get what we want, we deem it as impossible. But that's obviously not the case with everyone, and some are able to see the light at the end of the tunnel. Having a farm system full of quality pitching is a valuable commodity, and a good foundation for success in the future.

    I'm skeptical because I don't see a rebuild, I see a downsizing. Living in the right now? the Mets have essentially punted the last 3 seasons, and they're punting 2013. We haven't won the WS since 1986, we have had one playoff app since 2000, our only WS trip since 1986, in the last 12 soon to be 13 seasons we have made the post season ONCE. Who is living in the right now? Mets fans are living in never never land would be more accurate.

    Even if they traded Wright, they would have gotten blue chip prospects in return as well, and that would have made our chances of winning even greater 5 years from now, not to mention all the money they would have saved. Since they decided to keep him, we need to start aqcuiring pieces to help the team next season when the core is beginning to be established. This way we can build a consistent winner for years to come, instead of creating a short window(2006-2008) and suffering afterwords(2009-2013)

    Even if they traded Wright? they could not afford to, don;t just assume either than any of those prospects panned out, I doubt you have seen the number of blue chip prospects fail that I have, how old are you? 18?You've seen nothing my friend.

    The reason fans don't want to spend money for the sake of spending is because there is no one out there worth spending on that will help us long term. The last thing a rebuilding team needs is veterans taking playing time away from young players capable of success if given the opportunity. That's what Sandy has done this off-season. He's going to find out if one or more of Duda, Kirk, Valdespin, Baxter, Cowgill, Brown, etc can develop into quality players. I'd rather try and find out than give a guy like Scott Hairston a guarenteed spot to play everyday. That doesn't help anybody.

    I totally disagree with this loser mentality.

    The good thing about potentially sucking in 2013, is that they would have a Top 10 protected pick, which would make it easier for the Mets to go after top free agents, instead of losing their pick.

    Lol!!! they couldn't even tank properly last season!!!! this is how stupid and lost this team is!!!! Freddy Coupons doesn't care about protected picks!!! it's more money for him to spend!!!! they let their 2nd round pick go for 68K!!!

    Lets just say hypothetically, we won the WS in 2017. Would the rebuild be successful in your eyes? Doing what Sandy is doing now puts us in a better position to do that. I couldn't say that about the way Omar ran the team.

    Pointless question, I'll respond with one of my own, what if they haven't won the WS by 2017? would the rebuild be a success in your eyes

    Nobody said rebuilding would be easy. It requires patience, an open mind, and hope. It's definitely frustrating knowing that your team isn't going to be competitive, but at least the future looks brighter and I still get to watch my favorite team play my favorite sport.[/QUOTE]

    It's not a rebuild, it's a downsizing, they look remarkably similar I will grant you that. When a NY GM tosses away season after season and is pretending he has money to spend, it's not a rebuild. We're still owned by the Coupons who are now totally baseball broke as well as being total *****.

    When are you guys going to wake up?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    No, he said we're getting close to the point where we will be able to do that. That means, he can't do it in 2013 because his hands are tied, but the removal of Bay and Santana will allow them to do that in 2014 and beyond.
    He says he can but won't, typical Sandy snake.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungStuna28 View Post
    No, he said we're getting close to the point where we will be able to do that. That means, he can't do it in 2013 because his hands are tied, but the removal of Bay and Santana will allow them to do that in 2014 and beyond.
    This is exactly what McFly and I are talking about. "We're getting close to the point where we will be able to do that." Sandy leaves it up to the listener (or reader) to define such ambiguous terms as "close." Note how quickly you were willing to assign your own definition of "close." To you, close must mean 2014 and beyond. Hell, you even supplied your own rationale. didn't you?

    This is typical Sandy speak. He says things without saying anything but in such a way that his audience is convinced he's actually saying something.

    Don't fall for it.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-22-2013 at 08:47 AM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

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    This is exactly what my friend pointed out, so clever to imply whilst being ambiguous. That is an absolutely classic PR techniques.

    I can recall SA talking up spending as deals came off well before now, I don't have links but I recall it, it was just a matter of getting rid of a few deals and we could spend, well, almost every deal is off, and he still can't/won't spend.

    I don't think fans actually realize what thought goes into speaking to the fan base, they don't just throw anything out there, we're CUSTOMERS we're MONEY to them. If they can't or won't spend now, then they have to sell a massive pay-off later, which is where this nonsense about not spending until we can compete comes in.

    Who is to say when and at what level the team needs to be at in order to spend? totally ambiguous again.

    The PR job he has done has been amazing, he actually has NEW YORKERS signing up in droves for a wasted season, not just once but 3 times already! and probably another one next year!

    He's got fans running round telling other fans that SH ruins the future! Shane Marcum? oh my god that could set the team back 5 years! BP arms? oh the horror! an MLB credible FA? oh no, run to the hills screaming!

    In a couple of years time SA is going to walk out of Queens and into a top job @ MLB without looking back for a second, job done, and then it's going to dawn on people what he was a actually hired for.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    No-one, even me, has said they will spend $45M next year, I have said they will sign a player or two, they have to keep the charade moving forward a little, will they spend enough? no, they will do what they always do, just enough to give hope to the very optimistic.

    I'm skeptical because I don't see a rebuild, I see a downsizing. Living in the right now? the Mets have essentially punted the last 3 seasons, and they're punting 2013. We haven't won the WS since 1986, we have had one playoff app since 2000, our only WS trip since 1986, in the last 12 soon to be 13 seasons we have made the post season ONCE. Who is living in the right now? Mets fans are living in never never land would be more accurate.

    Even if they traded Wright? they could not afford to, don;t just assume either than any of those prospects panned out, I doubt you have seen the number of blue chip prospects fail that I have, how old are you? 18?You've seen nothing my friend.

    I totally disagree with this loser mentality.

    Lol!!! they couldn't even tank properly last season!!!! this is how stupid and lost this team is!!!! Freddy Coupons doesn't care about protected picks!!! it's more money for him to spend!!!! they let their 2nd round pick go for 68K!!!

    Pointless question, I'll respond with one of my own, what if they haven't won the WS by 2017? would the rebuild be a success in your eyes?

    It's not a rebuild, it's a downsizing, they look remarkably similar I will grant you that. When a NY GM tosses away season after season and is pretending he has money to spend, it's not a rebuild. We're still owned by the Coupons who are now totally baseball broke as well as being total *****.

    When are you guys going to wake up?
    A quality player or two can make a big difference for this team. They can't acquire enough players in one off-season to turn a 70 win team into a 90 win team, and that would create a window to win too early. I don't even see myself as optimistic to be honest, at least I know that even with a few moves this team would still suck next year. Some people still think that this could be an 80-85 win team, and that's outrageous.

    Rebuilding and downsizing is essentially the same thing with a key difference that I'll explain later in this post. When Omar took over, he gave Met fans instant gratification by signing Beltran, Pedro, and getting Delgado. Omar failed because the farm system was a piece of **** and was reluctant to trade his best prospects for impact players with the exception of the Santana deal. We are trying to get our farm system in a position where it can feed the major league team by both developing players and trading prospects for major league players.

    They could have easily traded Wright. They didn't because he is the face of the franchise and they feel he can be apart of the long term plan here. If Wright was 33, he would have been traded for sure.

    If Scott Hairston was an impact player, I would agree that it is better to play him over a guy like Cowgill, Brown, Baxter, Kirk, etc. but he's not. He has no chance to be an everyday player at this point of his career. He only wants to play for the Mets because he thinks he can get more playing time here.

    They didn't tank last season? They were 46-40 at some point last year, and 28-48 after. If that isn't tanking, I don't know what to tell you.

    How is that a pointless question? You just love to dodge anything that strays you away from your agenda here. If the Mets still haven't won anything by 2017, then part of the rebuild failed because they didn't trade Wright and he would likely be declined by then. But given that the farm has improved a lot, the team could be in a very good position by that time. But it's too far to speculate because we have no idea what players we would have or how close we are to competing.

    The only moves the Mets made that signaled "downsizing," was letting Reyes go via FA and trading K-Rod for salary relief. But even then, I'm sure Sandy expected he would have gotten a 1st round pick for Reyes, not a 2nd rounder, and we all know K-Rod was vastly overpaid. Trading Dickey and Beltran is exactly how rebuilding teams operate, and Sandy did that better than anyone could have.

    I too am skeptical on the Wilpon's true desires, but until I see them **** **** up with my own eyes when it's time to compete, I'll be optimistic on the future of the ball club.
    Last edited by YoungStuna; 01-22-2013 at 09:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    He says he can but won't, typical Sandy snake.
    "Can" and "will" are totally different. One implies that they MIGHT do something, the other implies that they WILL do something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    This is exactly what McFly and I are talking about. "We're getting close to the point where we will be able to do that." Sandy leaves it up to the listener (or reader) to define such ambiguous terms as "close." Note how quickly you were willing to assign your own definition of "close." To you, close must mean 2014 and beyond. Hell, you even supplied your own rationale. didn't you?

    This is typical Sandy speak. He says things without saying anything but in such a way that his audience is convinced he's actually saying something.

    Don't fall for it.
    Nearly $50M is coming off the books after this season. How does spending not fall into 2014 and beyond?

    If you really don't think they will spend in 2014 and beyond, you might as well stop rooting for the team until the Wilpons are gone because our farm system is not good enough to solely make us winners.

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