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  1. #31
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    Thanks Claymation. Couldn't agree with you more.

  2. #32
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    I think Frank Cashen had the right model. Build up the farm and trade for Superstars to fill in the holes. We just have to wait on the Hernandezs and Carters to come to us.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The other side of the coin of course is what Omar did: sign expensive free agents and trade for expensive players for the here and now. But winning that way is difficult to sustain.

    Ironically, Omar and Sandy have shown great proficiency of executing different halves of the equation. Shame they couldn't have been co GMs! Ha!

    (sometimes i crack myself up)
    I compare Omar a lot to Ruben Amaro.

    They had their run of success then they began to spend copious amounts of money to try and salvage a sinking ship.

    As for SA, he's made his share of mistakes but i always had more of a connection to a team that is built with home grown players. A strong farm system is something that can be a huge asset to a team. Ideally, i would love to see this team run similarly to the Rangers or Cardinals.

    It would allow this team to have flexibility with their roster, trade from points of strength, and still operate as a big market team when quality FA become available.

    The problem being the Mets haven't shown they can have that type of financial flexibility but if that changes and if i am going to choose between directional philosophies i would take Sandys over Omars. SA's philosophy of building a team in conjunction with spending money can provide a team with longer term success.

    Like you said it's a combination of both philosophies in some respect but more so Sandys from a player development and internal depth point of view.

    And i still believe he will add payroll to this team in 2014 and moving forward because what general manager's philosophy can be so circumscribed. General managers have to be multi functional and i am sure cutting payroll and adding younger players was only part of his plan till they were ready to spend again.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-21-2013 at 03:07 PM.

  4. #34
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    General managers have to be multi functional and i am sure cutting payroll and adding younger players was only part of his plan till they were ready to spend again.


    You could equally say that they don't intend investing in the team any time soon and just want a low payroll team, because that's exactly how they have played it so far.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Mcfly View Post
    You could equally say that they don't intend investing in the team any time soon and just want a low payroll team, because that's exactly how they have played it so far.
    You could but we'll have to see what next offseason and the offseasons thereafter are like.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    You could but we'll have to see what next offseason and the offseasons thereafter are like.

    Remarkably similar to this one methinks.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonyroos View Post
    I think Frank Cashen had the right model. Build up the farm and trade for Superstars to fill in the holes. We just have to wait on the Hernandezs and Carters to come to us.
    Yeah, and Cashen did not believe in free agency AT ALL. I think the only one's he signed were low wage vet signings like Corcoran (when there where questions as to whether Keith would be suspended), Niemann, Mazzilli and Jerry Martin (a former solid player who had drug issues).

    Basically his model was the current Tampa Bay Rays, only with trades for star players and having the money to sign your own guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoMeFavors View Post
    Bulls wont make the playoffs you can write it down.
    Quote Originally Posted by DoMeFavors View Post
    I've talked to some Nets and they told me they are saving their energy for the playoffs and people talking down on them are going to be suprised. One player told me "this was our plan all along"
    DMF on May 4th 2013:

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    This is a very naive and myopic view of what the Mets are doing. A rebuild takes place on many levels: Trading older, expensive talent for younger talent; trading surplus position players to fill a need at another position; allowing youngsters a chance to learn on the major league level, and signing strategic free agents.

    The only thing the Mets have done in the Alderson era is to trade out high salaried All Stars for top prospects while promoting minor leaguers of dubious ability.

    What you call rebuilding looks suspiciously like operating a team on the cheap. Maybe I'll think otherwise when I start to see them acquire players for purposes of improving the win total instead of the bottom line.

    To give credit where it's due, what Sandy has done he's done well. I doubt few other executives in baseball could have gotten such returns for Beltran and Dickey.

    But he's had two contradictions. He's been trading off expensive players but he settled for draft picks for Reyes. Then he broke the bank to re-sign Wright.

    If the Mets weren't overly obsessed with their bottom line, they could have held on to Reyes and been much closer to turning the team around than they are now. And if they were totally obsessed with the bottom line, David Wright would be gone too.

    I don't want to rehash all the musings about why it was strategically sound to make those moves. I've heard them already. The problem is that these "strategic" moves can be equally attributed to non-strategic motives which puts us back to square one.

    In a nutshell, I'll need to see the Mets do something other than sign bargain basement minor leaguers and exchange all stars for prospects before I can be convinced they're rebuilding into legitimate multi-year contenders.

    Until then, all I see is a team operating on the cheap charging me premium ticket prices.
    Agree. So far, I feel like Sgt. Schultz .. "I see nothing .." But I've followed the Mets since Day 1, so I'll wait and watch .. keeping in mind that no one has endless patience.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daaaarryyl View Post
    Yeah, and Cashen did not believe in free agency AT ALL. I think the only one's he signed were low wage vet signings like Corcoran (when there where questions as to whether Keith would be suspended), Niemann, Mazzilli and Jerry Martin (a former solid player who had drug issues).

    Basically his model was the current Tampa Bay Rays, only with trades for star players and having the money to sign your own guys.
    A little misleading since the acquisition of George Foster, while technically a trade, was dependent on the Mets agreeing to Foster's terms. I believe the Mets made Foster one of the highest paid players in the game at that time.

    Still, you make a great point. Cashen's predecessors under the previous owners were heavily criticized for not participating in the free agent market. (I think the first ever free agent we signed as a journeyman pitcher named Tom Hausman. Outfielder Eliott Maddox may have been number 2).

    When the Mets were sold, new owner Nelson Doubleday was asked pointedly by the media whether the Mets would now jump into the free agent market. He didn't say yes or no.

    Still, the Mets had no trouble trading for expensive players: Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter were among the highest paid players at their positions. Cashen, unlike his successor Al Harazin, knew that the answer was never to just pour money on a problem but to spend it wisely.

    That he did. Alderson on the other hand is not spending at all, save Wright's re-signing.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-21-2013 at 01:51 PM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    A little misleading since the acquisition of George Foster, while technically a trade, was dependent on the Mets agreeing to Foster's terms. I believe the Mets made Foster one of the highest paid players in the game at that time.

    Still, you make a great point. Cashen's predecessors under the previous owners were heavily criticized for not participating in the free agent market. (I think the first ever free agent we signed as a journeyman pitcher named Tom Hausman. Outfielder Eliott Maddox may have been number 2).

    When the Mets were sold, new owner Nelson Doubleday was asked pointedly by the media whether the Mets would now jump into the free agent market. He didn't say yes or no.

    Still, the Mets had no trouble trading for expensive players: Keith Hernandez and Gary Carter were among the highest paid players at their positions. Cashen, unlike his successor Al Harazin, knew that the answer was never to just pour money on a problem but to spend it wisely.

    That he did. Alderson on the other hand is not spending at all, save Wright's re-signing.
    If you have a $1.07 in your pocket, you can't go to Five Guys for lunch. You have to buy a cheeseburger off McDonald's dollar menu instead.
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    Knowing the overall *shape* of an idea, argument, situation requires as many facts, models, opinions as you can take/make to see a whole.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dugmet View Post
    If you have a $1.07 in your pocket, you can't go to Five Guys for lunch. You have to buy a cheeseburger off McDonald's dollar menu instead.
    Indeed. which is why we're doomed until the Wilpons sell. Otherwise, get used to dining at Mickey Dees.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Ya know, it's still possible to win while operating a team on the cheap. It just makes it more difficult, narrows your chances.

    But it's not the same as rebuilding.
    And yet Atlanta and Tampa have no problem doing it.
    Wasting picks on Free Agents will hamper the growth of your farm system.

    Hypothetically speaking, would the Mets have been better in the long run acquiring Francisco Rodriguez or drafting Michael Trout?

    While drafting a player like Trout is a rare occurrence, not having the opportunity makes it impossible to get him without forking out a hundred million 7 years later. You, among others, believe spending money will cure the Mets woes, much like the education system, it doesn't. All it does is give you a window of roughly 3 years. And if you're wrong about a FA like Bay, you set your team back. Because not only did you spend the money, but you lost a pick. Compound that with the K-Rod signing, not getting picks for Wagner, Ollie and others and your system is a bottom third franchise.


    "You don't know how to drink. Your whole generation, you drink for the wrong reasons. My generation, we drink because it's good, because it feels better than unbuttoning your collar, because we deserve it. We drink because it's what men do."

  13. #43
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    Yet Atlanta has forfeited picks for guys like Glavine and Wagner.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claymation View Post
    And yet Atlanta and Tampa have no problem doing it.
    Wasting picks on Free Agents will hamper the growth of your farm system.

    Hypothetically speaking, would the Mets have been better in the long run acquiring Francisco Rodriguez or drafting Michael Trout?

    While drafting a player like Trout is a rare occurrence, not having the opportunity makes it impossible to get him without forking out a hundred million 7 years later. You, among others, believe spending money will cure the Mets woes, much like the education system, it doesn't. All it does is give you a window of roughly 3 years. And if you're wrong about a FA like Bay, you set your team back. Because not only did you spend the money, but you lost a pick. Compound that with the K-Rod signing, not getting picks for Wagner, Ollie and others and your system is a bottom third franchise.
    Au contraire.

    All I'm saying is that building a team on the cheap handicaps your chances much the same that spending money supplements your chances.

    The Yankees are the most successful team in baseball but contrary to popular myth they never bought themselves a pennant. They did supplement their trades and drafts with expensive signings.

    All Sandy is trying to accomplish here is to keep the bottom line as low as possible in the hopes that something wonderful might happen. That's not a great recipe for success.

    To speak your lingo, waiting around to draft the next Mike Trout is about as wise as buying up the most expensive free agents.

    The answer as always is somewhere in the middle.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  15. #45
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    The Yankees bought many pennants.

    But to my recollection, the only WS title they bought was in 2009.

    It usually takes a multi-pronged approach to win in baseball. Build from within carefully. Trade intelligently. Spend money opportunistically.

    Choosing a single minded approach simply limits your chances at success.
    Go Grab My Belt

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