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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    The Yankees bought many pennants.

    But to my recollection, the only WS title they bought was in 2009.

    It usually takes a multi-pronged approach to win in baseball. Build from within carefully. Trade intelligently. Spend money opportunistically.

    Choosing a single minded approach simply limits your chances at success.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-21-2013 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    The Yankees bought many pennants.

    But to my recollection, the only WS title they bought was in 2009.

    It usually takes a multi-pronged approach to win in baseball. Build from within carefully. Trade intelligently. Spend money opportunistically.

    Choosing a single minded approach simply limits your chances at success.
    The 2009 team doesn't win bupkis if you remove Derek Jeter, Robbie Cano, Mariano Rivera, and Jorge Posada. Otherwise your point as always was beautifully and succinctly illustrated.

    Let's not kid ourselves by thinking Sandy is forgoing spending because he believes it is the best way to build a winning team. That's nonsense. He's not spending because he has very little resources at his disposal. It has nothing to do with a preferred strategy.

    Not the ideal way to do things.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-21-2013 at 04:37 PM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The 2009 team doesn't win bupkis if you remove Derek Jeter, Robbie Cano, Mariano Rivera, and Jorge Posada. Otherwise your point as always was beautifully and succinctly illustrated.

    Let's not kid ourselves for one instant though that Sandy is using this particular method because he believes it is the best way to get up the mountain. He's doing this because he has very little resources at his disposal.

    Not the ideal way to do things.
    Yes, but they don't win "bupkis" either without C.C , Texeira, Arod, and Matsui .. $$$$$$$
    #oneatatime

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpagz3 View Post
    Yes, but they don't win "bupkis" either without C.C , Texeira, Arod, and Matsui .. $$$$$$$
    Which is precisely the point i was trying to make. You need to build on all levels. Having a ton of money and knowing how to spend it just makes it easier. It's also worth noting that they were able to obtain Arod because they were able to offer Alfonse Soriano, who had quite a bit of value himself, to the Rangers.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-21-2013 at 04:46 PM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    The Yankees bought many pennants.

    But to my recollection, the only WS title they bought was in 2009.

    It usually takes a multi-pronged approach to win in baseball. Build from within carefully. Trade intelligently. Spend money opportunistically.

    Choosing a single minded approach simply limits your chances at success.
    Absolutely agree...and I think we are all hoping that this rebuild involves a multi-pronged approach at some point, because so far their has been one missing element...spending any money at all.

    I understand the fear coming from some people about this. I fear it too.

    On the other hand, I absolutely love the core of young players this team has moving forward.

    So obviously, I am mixed and would like to see some sort of spending (not just retaining Wright) before I get truly excited about the entire picture.

    I also understand that this just simply may not be the right offseason to spend in terms of timing and what is actually available. But still, one would like to think that they could have made some sort of moves to help improve the team this offseason. There had to have been at least something on the relative cheap they could have done.

    Mixed bag of emotions.

    Still though, the spring approaches and my enthusiasm for this team and their young core overrides the fear of us becoming the East Coast Athletics for the time being.
    Last edited by Wrigheyes4MVP; 01-21-2013 at 04:49 PM.
    DUDA


    Quote Originally Posted by VendettaRed07 View Post
    noah is gonna be a beast man.

    with him and harvey, its like were gonna have Goku and Vegetta in the same rotation

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Absolutely agree...and I think we are all hoping that this rebuild involves a multi-pronged approach at some point, because so far their has been one missing element...spending any money at all.

    I understand the fear coming from some people about this. I fear it too.

    On the other hand, I absolutely love the core of young players this team has moving forward.

    So obviously, I am mixed and would like to see some sort of spending (not just retaining Wright) before I get truly excited about the entire picture.

    I also understand that this just simply may not be the right offseason to spend in terms of timing and what is actually available. But still, one would like to think that they could have made some sort of moves to help improve the team this offseason. There had to have been at least something on the relative cheap they could have done.

    Mixed bag of emotions.

    Still though, the spring approaches and my enthusiasm for this team and their young core overrides the fear of us becoming the East Coast Athletics for the time being.
    Yep.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  7. #52
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    Nvm..
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-21-2013 at 05:05 PM.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The 2009 team doesn't win bupkis if you remove Derek Jeter, Robbie Cano, Mariano Rivera, and Jorge Posada. Otherwise your point as always was beautifully and succinctly illustrated.

    Let's not kid ourselves by thinking Sandy is forgoing spending because he believes it is the best way to build a winning team. That's nonsense. He's not spending because he has very little resources at his disposal. It has nothing to do with a preferred strategy.

    Not the ideal way to do things.
    They may have been 'homegrown', but the Yankees also had to resign those guys, who combined made more than some MLB franchises. Then they 'bought' several more High end free agents. They definitely bought divisions and pennants as much as any team has ever.


    Obviously using unlimited resources is a preferred strategy if we had them, but in our real world of limited resources, signing old free agents to big contracts the past couple years, while losing draft picks, would have made little sense. We saw how that worked out in the early 2000's and 90's. He has done a pretty reasonably good job of trading vets for a stockpile of good young specs and not running out and signing too many guys to bad long term contracts or trading for them. When we are better poised for a run I have little doubt we will add some more serious win-now talent.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    The 2009 team doesn't win bupkis if you remove Derek Jeter, Robbie Cano, Mariano Rivera, and Jorge Posada. Otherwise your point as always was beautifully and succinctly illustrated.

    Let's not kid ourselves by thinking Sandy is forgoing spending because he believes it is the best way to build a winning team. That's nonsense. He's not spending because he has very little resources at his disposal. It has nothing to do with a preferred strategy.

    Not the ideal way to do things.
    They may have been 'homegrown', but the Yankees also had to resign those guys, who combined made more than some MLB franchises. Then they 'bought' several more High end free agents. They definitely bought divisions and pennants as much as any team has ever.


    Obviously using unlimited resources is a preferred strategy if we had them, but in our real world of limited resources, signing old free agents to big contracts the past couple years, while losing draft picks, would have made little sense. We saw how that worked out in the early 2000's and 90's. He has done a pretty reasonably good job of trading vets for a stockpile of good young specs and not running out and signing too many guys to bad long term contracts or trading for them. When we are better poised for a run I have little doubt we will add some more serious win-now talent.

  10. #55
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    And your absolutely right.. That is a perfect theory for building a contender.
    Three parts: Build from within, Trade intelligently, & Spend opportunistically.

    At this point in the building process the Mets have "Traded Intelligently".
    (ex. Wheeler, TdA, Syndergaard, Beccarra)

    *Also have been trying to "Build from within"
    (ex. Wright, Niese, Harvey, Ike, Tejada, Murphy ... could count Duda as trying to build from within)

    But I think before SA will go for the third and final part, "Spend opportunistically", Mets management will have to see if the first two steps actually produced a solid core. And I think 2013 is a year that decides whether or not a contender can be built with "Spending Opportunistically"..

    It obviously depends on a lot of performance and growth from the current crop, but this should be a fun season to see if we have anything special going forward, which I personally think we do.
    #oneatatime

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrigheyes4MVP View Post
    Absolutely agree...and I think we are all hoping that this rebuild involves a multi-pronged approach at some point, because so far their has been one missing element...spending any money at all.

    I understand the fear coming from some people about this. I fear it too.
    Well the biggest problem here is perception.

    All the reports insinuate the Wilpons are broke, the actions of the GM insinuate they are broke, and the Wilpons aside from David Wright have not committed a large amount of money to a single player since Jason Bay.

    You almost want them to sign someone like a Michael Bourn just to prove they have some kind of money to play with even if its terrible signing (not that i advocate that deal but my point withstanding). It would certainly put many of us at ease about the ownership's financial footing but Sandy Alderson is not obviously going to make moves based on that fear. He is going to follow a specific philosophy that he believes will make this team competitive again within whatever financial boundaries are set for him.

    And in that we play the waiting game.

    The Wilpons are making two mistakes here. They are allowing the fans to become more apathetic as the team continues to meander near the bottom of their division and they are underscoring their fan's intelligence about their possible financial burdens. In that it's going to be hard to believe that rebuilding is actually going on even if it is because the general consensus is going to be "They have no money, this cutting payroll is all in hopes of keeping the team, and they have no intention of adding payroll in the future"

    Ultimately, perception drives fear otherwise this would be a normal rebuilding process that people would have generally accepted as part of a distancing from Omar Minaya and his overspending (especially when the ship was already sinking).
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-22-2013 at 04:55 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpagz3 View Post
    And your absolutely right.. That is a perfect theory for building a contender.
    Three parts: Build from within, Trade intelligently, & Spend opportunistically.

    At this point in the building process the Mets have "Traded Intelligently".
    (ex. Wheeler, TdA, Syndergaard, Beccarra)

    *Also have been trying to "Build from within"
    (ex. Wright, Niese, Harvey, Ike, Tejada, Murphy ... could count Duda as trying to build from within)

    But I think before SA will go for the third and final part, "Spend opportunistically", Mets management will have to see if the first two steps actually produced a solid core. And I think 2013 is a year that decides whether or not a contender can be built with "Spending Opportunistically"..

    It obviously depends on a lot of performance and growth from the current crop, but this should be a fun season to see if we have anything special going forward, which I personally think we do.
    Other than doing a good job of unloading our all stars, Sandy really hasn't traded intelligently. The Yankee dynasty of the late 1990s was built when they wisely traded Roberto Kelly for Paul O'Neill, and Russ Davis and Sterling Hitchcock for Tino Martinez and Jeff Nelson.

    The mini dynasty of the 70s was built after trading Fritz Peterson and three other pitchers for first baseman Chris Chambliss and Relief pitcher Dick Tidrow and after flipping journeymen John Ellis (catcher) and Jerry Kenney (infielder) for third baseman Graig Nettles.

    I haven't seen Sandy do anything remotely close to this. Sure, he's good at getting minor league prospects for major league all stars. Not the same thing.

    I could also have used the 80s Met examples of trades that brought in Howard Johnson, Ray Knight, Tim Teufel, and Bpbby Ojeda, and of course Gary Carter and Keith Hernandez. Frank Cashen, unlike SA, wasn't trying to build a team on the cheap so he didn't mind trading for players who had expensive contracts.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 01-21-2013 at 05:21 PM.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  13. #58
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    Is the word bupkis somehow entymologically related to the bobka?
    Go Grab My Belt

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GottaBelieve View Post
    Is the word bupkis somehow entymologically related to the bobka?
    Not at all, no.
    "Mr. Martin Tanner, Baritone, of Dayton, Ohio made his Town Hall debut last night. He came well prepared, but unfortunately his presentation was not up to contemporary professional standards. His voice lacks the range of tonal color necessary to make it consistently interesting. Full time consideration of another endeavor might be in order."

  15. #60
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    Not even the chocolate bobka?
    Go Grab My Belt

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