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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I still will take offensive upside though.
    There are very few comparisons where I'd strongly disagree with this approach. Pudge vs. Piazza is one of the rare few.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenorGato View Post
    I've always felt that Pudge's D was a little overrated. There's stories out there about how he called pitchers fastballs when they didn't want it because he wanted a better jump on base runners. Not a fun thing to throw to.
    Bagwell is convinced of this.

    Most defensive metrics for catchers are based on the running game, and maybe too much of it.

    The problem with most defensive metrics that are coming out now, such as framing and digging balls out of the dirt, didn't have data available for most of Pudge's days. They weren't readily available until Pitch f/x came around in 2002.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadeKobe View Post
    There are very few comparisons where I'd strongly disagree with this approach. Pudge vs. Piazza is one of the rare few.
    I meant to say, not always....but in this case I will.

    Piazza created 770 runs in the 90's, Pudge created 655.


    Pudge didn't save 115 runs defensively over Piazza in the 90's.

    And Pudge played quite a bit more.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    I meant to say, not always....but in this case I will.

    Piazza created 770 runs in the 90's, Pudge created 655.


    Pudge didn't save 115 runs defensively over Piazza in the 90's.

    And Pudge played quite a bit more.
    According to FG he saved 128 more runs defensively.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    These two statements don't mesh together well....
    My point being, the difference between 35 rWAR and 38 rWAR over a 10-year period is quite small. Therefore, while 38 rWAR is more valuable, I'll take the 35 guy who is infinitely better defensively.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadeKobe View Post
    According to FG he saved 128 more runs defensively.
    That's what I get for assuming and not looking it up lol.

    I didn't think it was really in the relm of possibility so I never looked to confirm.


    Well there ya go!

  7. #37
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    where does calling the pitches and stuff like that account for in the stats? cause to me that is part of the value too( maybe just as important as throwing out runners)

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldenstater View Post
    where does calling the pitches and stuff like that account for in the stats? cause to me that is part of the value too( maybe just as important as throwing out runners)
    Well you are never going to be able to calculate calling pitches.

    For a few reasons. Not all catchers call all pitches. Yadier does, but not everyone. Most rookie catchers get the calls from the dugout, and some pitchers like Verlander call their own game. So you have no way of being able to break down who is calling what and the sequence and if it has any value vs what could have been called. You also have the inability to know if the pitch was thrown in the correct place or not. Even though you can look at video and see where the catcher was set up, even that isn't 100% because sometimes catchers 'show a pitch' if men are on base for example.

    We can measure a catchers ability to block pitches, to frame pitches, to control the running game, to catch foul balls, to throw out bunt hits and sacrifices. That's it. We can't calculate many other things because they aren't measurable because it isn't consistent action. As long as it's consistent action, then it's measurable.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Well you are never going to be able to calculate calling pitches.

    For a few reasons. Not all catchers call all pitches. Yadier does, but not everyone. Most rookie catchers get the calls from the dugout, and some pitchers like Verlander call their own game. So you have no way of being able to break down who is calling what and the sequence and if it has any value vs what could have been called. You also have the inability to know if the pitch was thrown in the correct place or not. Even though you can look at video and see where the catcher was set up, even that isn't 100% because sometimes catchers 'show a pitch' if men are on base for example.

    We can measure a catchers ability to block pitches, to frame pitches, to control the running game, to catch foul balls, to throw out bunt hits and sacrifices. That's it. We can't calculate many other things because they aren't measurable because it isn't consistent action. As long as it's consistent action, then it's measurable.
    I realize there are too many variables in play for it to have a lot of meaning, but I wonder what it might look like to compare carchers' ERA with the same pitcher? I wonder if that would lend any useful information.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadeKobe View Post
    I realize there are too many variables in play for it to have a lot of meaning, but I wonder what it might look like to compare carchers' ERA with the same pitcher? I wonder if that would lend any useful information.
    Are you saying as in the same season? A back up vs a starter?

    I don't think you'll have enough of a sample size to learn anything.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Are you saying as in the same season? A back up vs a starter?

    I don't think you'll have enough of a sample size to learn anything.
    It would have to be done over multiple seasons, you would think. But then you're probably introducing far too many variables. Obviously vs. a backup the sample sizes would be far too small over the course of one season.

    Eh, I was thinking out loud. Sorry. Lol. Thanks for listening! You may ignore me now.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by WadeKobe View Post
    It would have to be done over multiple seasons, you would think. But then you're probably introducing far too many variables. Obviously vs. a backup the sample sizes would be far too small over the course of one season.

    Eh, I was thinking out loud. Sorry. Lol. Thanks for listening! You may ignore me now.
    I think it's interesting. And you could take a look and see if you have one consistent starter with even different backups how it's consistently going. But you are going to have different pitchers come and go, and just so many variables. I just don't know how useful the information would be without context and the sample sizes will be issues.

    I mean, Posey is consistently better than his backups in cERA, and Ryan Hanigan is consistently one of the best. But these guys have good rotations, and their backups aren't doing a lot of the catching (at least in Posey's case). And with a revolving door being the backups, it's hard to have enough information to know what to look for.
    Last edited by Jeffy25; 01-21-2013 at 07:13 PM.

  13. #43
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    Are we ignoring the steroids issue like the HOF does? If not, then no Bonds and Mark M.

    If we're ignoring the steroids, then I would put them in my lineup as well.

  14. #44
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    The Official 90's team is:

    C - Piazza
    1B - Bagwell
    2B - Alomar
    3B - Ventura
    SS - Larkin
    LF - Bonds
    CF - Griffey
    RF - Walker
    Bench - Thomas

    Rotation
    1. Clemens
    2. Maddux
    3. Johnson
    4. Glavine
    5. Cone

    Closer - Hoffman

  15. #45
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    My team of the 90's

    C - Mike Piazza
    1B - Frank Thomas
    2B - Roberto Alomar
    3B - Edgar Martinez
    SS - Barry Larkin
    LF - Barry Bonds
    CF - Ken Griffey Jr
    RF - Albert Belle

    Bench - Jeff Bagwell

    Rotation
    Greg Maddux
    Pedro Martinez
    Tom Glavine
    John Smoltz
    Randy Johnson

    Closer
    Mariano Rivera

    This team would be almost unstoppable against any decade.

    Think of this lineup (where do you get an easy out???)

    1) Roberto Alomar
    2) Barry Bonds
    3) Ken Griffey Jr
    4) Frank Thomas
    5) Albert Belle
    6) Edgar Martinez
    7) Mike Piazza
    8) Barry Larkin

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