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  1. #241
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    Doughty is a bit overrated as a side point.

    The problem Lavy is that your not really right.

    The Leafs problems aren't really cap problems.

    We havn't really been limited by the cap in terms of getting certain players. We also have had young players under years of control. (Kessel was one of them, Grabovski before his current contract another, Kulemin, Schenn Jake Gardiner

    The issues have been that we have had little to no production out of the goaltending spot, horrible penalty killing and a bad defense.

    If we would have tanked would that have improved? Maybe, but to be fair, tanking while it helps is not the complete basis behind great teams barring you get multiple absolute franchise players. Its a good way of assemblign talent but drafting overall (Especially later in the first round and in later rounds) is also very important.

    The Blue Jays are an example since your referencing AA. The Blue Jays never tanked at all. The highest pick they had was what? 11th?

    EDIT: Do I think going after young players and trying to get young stars is a good idea? Yes but its too simplistic to think the only way to suceed in the NHL is by tanking.

    Even if you want to look at the Blackhawks and say hey thats an example with Toews and Kane. You need to consider how the other great players got on their roster Seabrook and Duncan Keith, Patrick Sharp, Marian Hossa, David Bolland, Kris Versteeg, Dustin Byfuglien, Andrew Ladd etc
    I'm seriously getting sick of saying this, but here we go again. The Leafs need to build a core through the draft (similar to you example with the Hawks) and then add complimentary pieces to it. THe only UFAs that want to come to Toronto are old ones looking for a pay day (Armstrong, Connolly, Komi etc). Build a core of high end young players and see how fast the UFAs lineup to sign here. Load up on a draft (2013 for example) and bring in two 1st round picks (through a trade)...hope the scouts can find a steal in the 2nd or 3rd round. It's not that far fetched for a team to build a young core through 2-3 drafts

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    I wasn't talking about drafting when I mentioned AA.. Go back and read it...I said he needs to teach MLSE how to control player's contracts...nothing to do with the draft
    Well but then clearly your talking on different angles.

    Those are two widely different stratedgies.
    ?
    I agree keeping contracts under control is important but its easier in baseball. You know why? Because baseball doesn't have RFA and has automatic arbitration for 3 years.

    Its not really fair to make the comparison to baseball at all. The Leafs problems are not really cap problems at all. Its that they've wasted alot of time on players who can't do what they need them to do.

    The biggest issue by far also has been goaltending. The Leafs have had the worst goaltending play in the leaguef or about 5 years now.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    Doughty vs. Phaneuf, really I would faceplam you on that one but its a bit rude and I'm going to tone it down a bit.
    It's not intended to be Doughty vs. Phanuef, again you respond with "they aren't on the same level". You said that "no team with more than 2 overpaid players is going to win the cup". I pointed out that the LA kings had 4. Whether their players are better is irrevelent, i once again gave you facts to disprove your agrument and you again dismissed it by saying that we had inferior players. Read you original post, even after i told you to READ it you still think i am the person in the wrong. The facepalm should be on you.

    As a direct comparison in terms of dollars, Richards and Carter will be make almost the exact same money as Grabo and Lupul starting next year for the following five. Not sure about you but give me the former pair rather then the latter.
    Once again you fail to back up your own argument. Did i make this a Lupul and Grabo vs. Richards and Carter argument? nope i gave you a team with more than 2 overpaid players and made your "more than 2 overpaid players= no cup" argument invalid.


    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    Dude I didn't compare Opti did. And if LA asked for Phaneuf one for one would you turn it down.

    I'm done with this argument. You guys keep wanting to compare on a micro level and I'm talking about an economic philosophy. We could compare players and their salaries all day. Go back and read post #226, if you don't agree fine.

    Then we agree to disagree. I'm done with this.
    Again, i didn't bring up anything you did. You said we couldn't win the cup because we had too many overpaid player (you were VERY specific on the #) and i gave you the very team that just won the cup. I never compared players abilities i compared the cap hit of each overpaid player on their team. Which seems to be your "economic argument"

    Put me on your ignore list because i will keep on pointing out flaws in your arguments, because you have failed to back them up. We still don't know why you think Lupul is overpaid, and how you prove that he wouldn't have gotten $$ on the UFA market, when history has shown UFAs are drastically overpaid. Also we don't know how the LA kings won the cup against the odds of having overpaid players.
    Last edited by OptiMized; 01-26-2013 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    I'm seriously getting sick of saying this, but here we go again. The Leafs need to build a core through the draft (similar to you example with the Hawks) and then add complimentary pieces to it. THe only UFAs that want to come to Toronto are old ones looking for a pay day (Armstrong, Connolly, Komi etc). Build a core of high end young players and see how fast the UFAs lineup to sign here. Load up on a draft (2013 for example) and bring in two 1st round picks (through a trade)...hope the scouts can find a steal in the 2nd or 3rd round. It's not that far fetched for a team to build a young core through 2-3 drafts
    Sure but the Hawks didn't build through tanking in reality.

    We did try to build up through pieces. We just didn't really get the right ones/build enough of the defense this way.

    Your ignoring the fact that during the late Fletcher years and Burke years we got the following players fairly young and cheap.

    Kessell, Grabovski, Gardiner, Kadri, MacArthur, Bozak, Lupul,

    When have we been spending big on FA? Komisarek is pretty much Burke's biggest FA. He traded for Phaneuf in a gamble that was worth doing that hasn't panned out.

    The problem with this team is actually quite in the margins for the past 2 seasons. Its been 1-2 pieces in the top 6, bottom 6 forwards who can actually kill penalties.

    Better defenseman who can actually be just shut down and ****ing goaltending.

    Its possible to build a young core in 2-3 drafts but not really likely.

    Considering the 2009-2010 Blackhawks as your example.

    Leaving aside the star free agents in Hossa and Campbell (two of the top 6 players on that team), guys in the young core were Duncan Keith 2002 Draft, Brent Seabrook 2003 draft Patrick kane 2007 draft, Jonathan Toews 2006 draft, Patrick Sharp (Aquired via trade drafted in 2001), Kris Versteeg aquired via trade (originally 2004 draft), Troy Brouwer 2004 draft, Dustin Byfuglien 2003 draft, Niemi undrafted free agent.

    Building the Hawks core included drafts from 2001 to 2007, trades for underrated young players, undrafted free agent goalie and big time FA signings.

    Only two members of the Hawks core were top 10 picks.

    Its not the only way to build a roster at all. What seperates the Hawks from the horror shore that is Columbus or even the Islanders is the complimentary moves in addition to the high picks.

    The Leafs problems under Burke was wasting cap space (and not persuing proper free agents) but more importantly, it was his inabilility to fix certain parts of the team year after year. The goalie situation was never fixed at all. Thats his most underrated failure. The Kessel deal would not have fixed it either way.

    The defenseman on this team were also pretty much all atrocious and he does deserve some blame here for blowing some money (Komisarek and Beachemin) but mostly for never getting anyone who could really plug those holes. Phaneuf was the only one who was even really close. Schenn's ****** development certainly sucked also.

    Thirdly, we never got a good penalty kill which combined factors 1 and 2 and also the fact that we wasted way too many third and fourth line spots on gritty guys who couldn't kill penalties (Armstrong, Brown, Orr, Rosehill) and more come to mind.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    To me it's worse that the Leafs didn't sign him to that contract...they traded for that contract knowing what they were getting themselves into (a d-man whose best years were behind him that was making $6.5 per season).
    It's worse to you that they got a very good defenseman for a bunch of players who are either out of the league now or playing 3rd line and below roles?

    Best years behind him? Sure he had a real breakout season with 60 pts but he is still on par with his career average. ~50 pt dmen aren't acquired very easily, especially ones who are only 28 when their contract expires and just entering their "prime years". Look at what Phanuef had with him in Calgary:

    Adrian Aucoin 34 points $4 million cap hit
    Cory Sarich 20 points $3.8 million cap hit
    Mark Giordano 19 points $1 million cap hit
    Robyn Reghr 8 points $4.1 million hit

    Dion hasn't had anywhere close to this kind of supporting cast. Dion wasn't a PKer in Calgary but he is here by default. He shouldn't be making $6.5 million but that wasn't our mistake, but to say that acquiring him for the scraps we got him for was a mistake is ludicrous.

    Dion is a #2 dman, but he is being played like a #1 dman because we have nothing to pair him with. Regher covered up a lot of his mistakes in Calgary, and was used on the PK instead of Phanuef. The flames were assuming Phaneuf's struggles in his own end (and issues in the dressing room) were unfixable. It's taken some time, but Phaneuf has adjusted his defensive game to the point they can rely (you can focus on his bad games all you want but he has improved) on him in top pairing minutes against other teams' top lines (something CGY didn't use him for). He's certainly not a top shutdown defender, but he's servicable in that role now.

    Last year in 2011-12, Phaneuf played a full 82-game season (3rd time in his career), scoring 12 goals and 32 assists for 44 points. The issue: still Defense. Miscalculated pinches, getting beat wide, and lost battles in front of the net haunted Phaneuf on a team that, as pretty much always, can't seem to keep the puck out of the net. Can new head coach Randy Carlyle fix that? Well see. Aside from last game, Dion has been solid and there is room for optimism.

    Fun Fact: Dion has scored more goal in a Leafs jersey (22 g) then any of the players the flames got in 164 games (17 g).

    Dion has a lot of weaknesses for a $6.5 million defenseman but so do a lot of guys. That trade was a win for us, the flames don't have any of those players except Stajan (lol you want him?). Is he a $6.5 million D man? nope, but he is a very good offensive D man and has been the only real legitimate Top-2 Dman we've had in a while. Dion most likely won't get $6.5 Million on his next contract but $5.5 - $6 is very possible. If we have to put up with 2 more years of $6.5 million for a player that produces what a $6 million dollar d man does than thats fine by me.

    Dion was 12th in scoring last year, almost all of those players have similar cap hits (ELC's and breakout years aside). Dion has been consistent on the offensive end and inconsistent on the defensive end. Of all the Dman in the top 30 scorers, only 3 were on teams that missed the playoffs (Subban, Streit, and Dion).
    Last edited by OptiMized; 01-26-2013 at 04:38 PM.

  6. #246
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    Dion typically starts well every season and drops off, why? his body wears down. No big deal so does every player but to a guy that is playing against top offenses when he really should't is a disaster waiting to happen. Dion was an early Norris candidate at the half way point of last season (famously brought up by Wilson) when the leafs were in the playoff hunt. Not many people disagreed with him, on the TSN quiz they all acknowleged that his pace over a full season would warrent consideration.

    The first 3 games of this season Dion played very well, despite not scoring his defensive play was much improved. Then on the second half of a back to back people jump on him again after a disastrous game. Buffalo was maybe his best defensive game in a long while, Pitt was impressive as well (aside from the crosby goal but it's freaking crosby).

  7. #247
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    We forget as well that randy inserted a new system...how many preseason games did they play to work on it..none, thats what the first 10 games will be, working on a new style

  8. #248
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    Blow it up b'yotch. If we don't do this thing right sooner or later we'll be right back where we were when Farvre left.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingerSox View Post
    Blow it up b'yotch. If we don't do this thing right sooner or later we'll be right back where we were when Farvre left.
    What does this mean?

    What should we blow up? What do you think we're getting for certain players?

    Also calling Sundin, Favre is a bit too disrespectful for the greatest Maple Leaf by far of the last 20 years and one of the top 3 ever.

  10. #250
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    ^ i didn't like what Sundin did either but it's what leaf fans do. No matter how good you are, one bad performance/ decision is all it takes to overshadow that. It's works the other way too but only for tough guys i guess

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    What does this mean?

    What should we blow up? What do you think we're getting for certain players?

    Also calling Sundin, Favre is a bit too disrespectful for the greatest Maple Leaf by far of the last 20 years and one of the top 3 ever.
    Trade everyone for 7th round picks. Bring Farvre in as coach.

  12. #252
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    Tim Connolly's WAYYY overpaid for an AHL'er!

  13. #253
    Lavy16 is offline Users Awaiting Moderation
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrice9 View Post
    What does this mean?

    What should we blow up? What do you think we're getting for certain players?

    Also calling Sundin, Favre is a bit too disrespectful for the greatest Maple Leaf by far of the last 20 years and one of the top 3 ever.
    20 years ago, Doug Gilmour put up 32 goals, 84 assists for 127 points (33 more points than Sundin ever scored as a Leaf)...the next season he put up 27 goals and 84 assists for 111 points (17 more points than Sundin scored as a Leaf)...did Sundin ever break the 100 point mark in a Leafs uniform? Now use the excuse that Sundin never had anyone to play with. Look who Gilmour's wingers were when he put up 127 points.

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    You're talking a different era when Gilmour was in his prime. Notice how his stats dropped off starting in 95? Sundin doubled Gilmours production in a tougher era and with ******** linemates.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lavy16 View Post
    To me it's worse that the Leafs didn't sign him to that contract...they traded for that contract knowing what they were getting themselves into (a d-man whose best years were behind him that was making $6.5 per season).
    Exactly, it is worse then signing the contract in the first place, way worse.

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