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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmo429 View Post
    using the 2 most telling production statistics to tell how good he was...
    They aren't very telling.

  2. #77
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    cannot cantu

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmo429 View Post
    using the 2 most telling production statistics to tell how good he was...
    There's really only one stat of value of the three- HR.
    Last edited by SFrush90; 01-21-2013 at 02:21 PM.


    Ariana Grande

  4. #79
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    Yep. And even that by itself isn't great because you can create runs without hitting a bunch of HR.

    Just misinformed and ignorant.
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  5. #80
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    I have to admit i love the fact that a "What happened to Jorge Cantu" thread turned into another argument about traditional stats versus sabermetrics.

  6. #81
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    Yeah, my fault. I was planning on including the saber stats that tell he was not that good ever, but I was on my phone and was lazy, and left it at that..
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  7. #82
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    Do you see what you did?


    Ariana Grande

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmo429 View Post
    using the 2 most telling production statistics to tell how good he was...
    and which two of the three would be the "most telling production statistics"?

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFrush90 View Post
    Do you see what you did?
    You have no idea how excited I am right now.


  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    Yeah, my fault. I was planning on including the saber stats that tell he was not that good ever, but I was on my phone and was lazy, and left it at that..
    I don't think you started it though..

    I think it started from one of the newer posters earlier in the thread.

    I was just pointing in general how often the argument comes up in threads you wouldn't even think were even related.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-21-2013 at 03:37 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by jej View Post
    No, AVG=/= OBP in value. OBP factors in walks, which is a very imporatant part of the game. Average leaves that out. The point is to get on base. It doesn't matter how you do it. OBP correlates to runs better than almost anything else. In what way are they equal when one tells you more, and can be proven as such?

    And once again, wOBA is even better than both.
    If all a player does is walk and has absolutely no power than yes, OBP can be misleading.

    If a players hits very often go for extra base hits and he has a high average, chances are he's going to be hitting for quite a few extra base hits.

    My point was for a hitter you don't want to have just avg or obp or power, you really need all 3 to become a complete hitter.

    And for the last time, i'm not even mentioning wOBA so quit bringing it up.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirate View Post
    If all a player does is walk and has absolutely no power than yes, OBP can be misleading.
    It's all about not making outs.

    Guys with high on base averages make less outs.

    Also a walk makes a pitcher throw additional pitches allowing you to get further through the order and make that pitcher not last as long.



    If a players hits very often go for extra base hits and he has a high average, chances are he's going to be hitting for quite a few extra base hits.
    wOBA tells you this much more clearly.

    My point was for a hitter you don't want to have just avg or obp or power, you really need all 3 to become a complete hitter.
    Well of course.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    It's all about not making outs.

    Guys with high on base averages make less outs.

    Also a walk makes a pitcher throw additional pitches allowing you to get further through the order and make that pitcher not last as long.

    If all a player does is walk though he's no better than a singles hitter. Also obviously a single has greater potential to influence the outcome of the game. Idealy of course I want both.


    wOBA tells you this much more clearly.

    Obviously, it's just this isn't a debate on how good or bad wOBA is, at least in my view. I thought I was arguing on why Adam Dunn went down the drain, my case, he's just horrible at making contact with the ball and getting base hits, hence his strike outs. He's always been like this but ever since he moved to Chocago, he's been much worse. I don't know what happened to his OBP skills, I guess he turned into an all or nothing swing machine due to loss of bat speed maybe, just a guess.

    Reply in bold.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampirate View Post
    Reply in bold.
    There is no such thing as a player that only walks.




    As for Dunn's OBP skills.

    OBP is directly influenced by a hitters ability to hit for extra base power and their patience. It's two-fold. Being very patient will allow you to naturally draw more walks and more strike outs. The Ben Zobrist's of the world that don't carry a ton of power, or 30 or 40 home run power are so patient that they will work walks all on their own. But they still need to do other things to make these walks happen. You can't be a really bad hitter and just draw walks and create value. Albert Pujols' regression and decline the last few years is from him being less patient and chasing more pitches outside of the strike zone. You'd have to ask him directly why he was doing this, but he started to chase pitches he had never chased before. The rest of his game remained the same.

    The other part is being a high power hitter makes pitchers work around you. With Dunn. His power was zapped. A lack of bat speed mainly. So pitchers were no longer afraid to attack him by simply throwing strikes. When a guy has the ability to drive himself in at any point in the game because he has consistent 40 home run power, pitchers will begin to throw pitches out of the zone more hoping he will chase and settling with a walk if it happens. It's what made Bonds' walk rate sky-rocket to record breaking totals.


    You can expect to see Giancarlo Stanton's walk rate improve this season. He is going to get less pitches to hit as the season progresses and his power sustains. Which will cause an increase in his OBP and his Slugging will remain high. If his power falls down, then his walk rate will too since he isn't necessarily a very patient hitter on his own.


    So high walk rates are driven by two things. Having the power that pitchers fear you, and being so patient that you just work them. You won't draw walks though if you are a bad hitter. Pitchers will attack you and go after you, especially if they realize you are slumping. So until you show you can beat them again, you won't be getting walked unless it's completely accidental. Ben Zobrist keeps a high walk rate because he crushes doubles and does other things. If he stops hitting, his walk rate will drop. But his patience will force walks all on their own.


    As for singles driven obp. We know what that looks like. That's Ichiro and Ryan Theriot (to a lesser degree). It's still a mediocre obp and their batting average is very misleading because they are empty singles with no walks. Pitchers aren't afraid of them and their batting average tells you nothing.

  15. #90
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    How did I know this was gonna turn into a sabermetrics battle .....

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