Panthers Promote Shula, Proehl, Rogers

[homestarunner93]

We may be overreacting a bit here. We're so quick to judge based on past failures without acknowledging that people can learn in the meantime. Not every coach/coordinator gets it right his first time around, but that doesn't mean he'll never get it right -- especially when he's inheriting a strong team and a system developed by his predecessor.

I also don't think we're being fair to JR. We complain when he sheds veteran salaries in preparation for the lockout and uncapped year, then we turn around and complain when he extends/re-signs a bunch of younger veterans to long contracts. Or is that all Hurney? I can't remember what our "party line" is on this forum. Both, I guess? There's no reason to think JR had anything to do with promoting Shula to OC. If you own a business, you don't sit on a bunch of money and accept a modest income if you think that spending money will generate more income. I think JR wants to win -- for his legacy, but also for his bottom line -- but he's not going to spend money for the sake of spending money; he's going to spend money when he thinks it will help him win. I think we're falling into the "just throw more money at it" trap. It doesn't work with project management, it doesn't work with government, and it doesn't work with running a business.

And AGAIN, as I've said many times before, us fans have NO visibility into what's going on behind closed doors and why decisions are being made. We have NO reason to think that Jackson wanted the job here or wasn't offered it.

In typical overreacting, "**** on Rivera" fashion, you talk about Rivera "[deciding] he hates Josh Norman" -- when did that happen? So Norman rode the bench the last few weeks of the season. So he had a chance to learn by watching others. I mean, I guess it's a lot like the Joe Adams situation, which means Norman will never see the field again... oh, wait.

Cutting Gamble is going to hurt, no doubt, but it's one of the easiest salary cap moves considering how well Rivera, McDermott, and crew had the CBs playing after Gamble got injured. If anything, though, with the way Norman flashed his potential this year, getting a CB later in the draft might not be as wasteful as it has been in the past. As another example, Robert McClain (you remember him) was a 7th round pick and is playing quite well for the Falcons this year, only his third season. I'd look for a 4th or 5th round pick to be spent there.

Unfortunately, I think you're 100% right about our ability -- or namely, the lack thereof -- to be active in free agency. Even if we cut Gamble, we'll have to restructure quite a few contracts. You have to figure that Gettleman and Rivera are going over roster priorities currently and that we'll hear about restructured deals and releases within the next month or so. We've discussed who has to be on that last (Beason, Williams, Anderson, etc.).

Speaking of Williams, I don't think Skipper was brought in to placate him. I think part of the reason Skipper was brought in is to help rejuvenate the running game. I wouldn't be surprised to see him working closely with Shula.

Not overreacting at all. Our coaching staff is now worse (and short-handed), our roster will be equal or worse. What sign of optimism is there? None.

So, if it wasn't saving money, what is the good reason to play an assistant coach down? For ***** and giggles? Sounds like a competitive disadvantage that serves no purpose other than to save money. On top of that, you promote within at WR and ST (also cheap). Just atrocious.

The Panthers CHOSE to promote Shula over Jackson and Shurmur. Person said both wanted the job. Chalk it up as yet another failure by RR.

You don't bench young players that need reps unless you're a guy like Rivera with petty "doghouses."

Too bad McClain is another one we cut. Darius Butler was good for the Colts as well. Stevie Brown made big plays for the Giants. But we cut them all like garbage.

The only thing the Panthers can afford to add via FA is a few plug-and-play type veterans that you hope have career years. It's not crazy to expect, but not really a sound strategy when you're trying to take the step from trash to WC contender.

I really didn't think the cornerbacks struggled this season, all things considered. They've already shown they can win without Gamble, and even if we could guarantee Gamble would be 100% healthy, he's not worth $10M when we're over the cap already. I think Gamble is a top 10 CB and it'll probably be tough to see him go (especially if he stays in the division), but he's looking to be gone, unless he's willing to drop a hefty portion of his contract, which he won't, and shouldn't do.

When I mentioned FA I was saying we should wait and see what players we're able to keep and which ones end up walking/traded. Given the new GM and the cap issues, we really don't even know who is safe. Some of our best players, like Gross, Smitty, Gamble, Beason, D-Will, J-Stew, Tolbert, and R. Edwards could all be on that list.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe cutting Gamble gets us somewhere between even and $2M over the cap, which is fixable with restructures. I see us spending one of our first three picks on a CB and then using what we have outside of Gamble and maybe even Munnerlyn.

What have they shown they can win without Gamble? More irrelevant games? Then you have to spend the money to re-sign Captain in the first place, your best CB, who is a nickel CB talent at best.

Either way, there's little to no path where the Panthers come out on top in FA.

Well, that will be spectacular...for the opposing passing games.

[manbearchef]

What have they shown they can win without Gamble? More irrelevant games? Then you have to spend the money to re-sign Captain in the first place, your best CB, who is a nickel CB talent at best.

Either way, there's little to no path where the Panthers come out on top in FA.

Well, that will be spectacular...for the opposing passing games.

Again, even though we weren't in contention, wins are wins, and it's not like we won against teams that weren't trying to win as well. We lost several close games early in the season due to atrocious offensive play-calling.

Captain needs to be re-signed, but he should probably be allowed to test FA first. We should offer him a good contract for a NB, but let him look elsewhere to see that no other team wants him as a dedicated starting CB. No way he deserves an outrageous contract, even by NB standards.

What exactly are the Panthers missing in FA? Potential bust OTs, like Long? I'd love to have Long, but not at the risk of our franchise being in jeopardy for the next few years, plus his injuries are now a major turn-off. I doubt the rest of the upper-tier OTs leave their current teams. Byrd would be awesome for FS, but it's not like a FS's contract is out of the question even if he did come here. Our best hope for FA is to find a diamond in the rough like D.Edwards last year.

Obviously it's not ideal to have the youth we have at CB starting, but assuming we have the same DL (possibly more improved if we have an added DT in the first round), plus our LBs, it's possible for the team to be a top 15-20 defense, which if the offense can play like the top 10 offense it can be, that will be just fine.

[N.E.PanthersFan]

Not overreacting at all. Our coaching staff is now worse (and short-handed), our roster will be equal or worse. What sign of optimism is there? None.

So, if it wasn't saving money, what is the good reason to play an assistant coach down? For ***** and giggles? Sounds like a competitive disadvantage that serves no purpose other than to save money. On top of that, you promote within at WR and ST (also cheap). Just atrocious.

The Panthers CHOSE to promote Shula over Jackson and Shurmur. Person said both wanted the job. Chalk it up as yet another failure by RR.

You don't bench young players that need reps unless you're a guy like Rivera with petty "doghouses."

Too bad McClain is another one we cut. Darius Butler was good for the Colts as well. Stevie Brown made big plays for the Giants. But we cut them all like garbage.

The only thing the Panthers can afford to add via FA is a few plug-and-play type veterans that you hope have career years. It's not crazy to expect, but not really a sound strategy when you're trying to take the step from trash to WC contender.

What have they shown they can win without Gamble? More irrelevant games? Then you have to spend the money to re-sign Captain in the first place, your best CB, who is a nickel CB talent at best.

Either way, there's little to no path where the Panthers come out on top in FA.

Well, that will be spectacular...for the opposing passing games.

- Our coaching staff is now worse? I forgot, you already know how next season is going to go -- forgot about your mystical powers. The fact of the matter is we have no idea whether this staff is going to be worse or not. We don't know what kinds of plays Shula is going to call. We do know what kinds of plays Chud called, and for the first half of the season we hated them. Who's to say Shula won't do a better job of play-calling? Who's to say Proehl won't have an easier time relating his relatively recent game experience to the WRs than the older Graves? Who's to say Skipper won't work with Shula to improve the running attack?

- Why not hire a new QB coach? Because Shula already has a (presumably positive) relationship with Newton. Why bring someone else to put in between the two?

- How is promoting from within cheap? Maybe, just maybe, they're qualified for the job?? Maybe it's easier (i.e., a smoother transition) for the entire coaching staff if they keep known entities at those positions. Do we know that those guys didn't see a raise along with the promotion? I'd be willing to bet they're making more money as a result of the promotion. Oh, right, here's where you complain about Rivera favoring "his guys", as if any coach in the world doesn't favor the guys who he's familiar with.

- I think you're chalking too much up to failure before anything actually happens. Truth is: we don't know whether these decisions are going to be failures or successes, and we won't until at least midway through next season.

- You bench young players if you think they'll learn more watching, or if you think they're not working hard enough to maintain their starting spot. You can call that the "doghouse", but it's Rivera's job to keep his guys working hard -- making it clear that he won't tolerate anything less than 100% is definitely one way to achieve that. Growing up, I saw star players on my teams relegated to bench players because they weren't working hard enough. You know what happened? They worked harder and got better because of it. Rivera has done a terrific job of keeping guys motivated, and if he has send a message to a player who isn't working as hard, he absolutely should do so.

- That we're pretty much screwed in free agency sucks, but when do we ever sign anyone other than a "plug-and-play type veteran"? Ron Edwards is plug-and-play, Dwan Edwards was a diamond in the rough, Geoff Hangartner is plug-and-play and had a history with the team. If you thought we were suddenly going to go out and spend big in free agency... well, I don't know where you got that idea.

- I guess there are different perspectives about "irrelevant" games. Personally, there's no such thing as an irrelevant game. You don't go into a game thinking "oh, this game doesn't matter", and neither does your opponent. These guys are professionals. You don't get to that level of play if you're ever willing to settle for anything less than 100% effort 100% of the time.

- There are lots of moves that need to be made. And I think you're right -- I don't see any way this team comes out ahead. That means we need some of our younger and less-experienced guys to step up. But that always going to be the case anyway.

[manbearchef]

A lot of the players seem to be stoked about keeping the same system, plus Williams and Stewart both seem excited to have Skipper back. The way Williams' tweet sounds, it sounds like he wants to be back next season.

[Killakatsfan]

I'd bet our offense is better next season. With a healthy O line and rejuvenated running game I believe we are in good shape with our coaching staff. I can't see how Shula is such a bad idea.

[NCBoSoxfan21]

Kalil makes a huge improvement. He's the captain and anchor of that line.

[manbearchef]

Kalil makes a huge improvement. He's the captain and anchor of that line.

Couple that with Silatolu hopefully continuing to develop, plus hopefully an OT being drafted with our first or second pick, then I really don't think it'll matter what plays are being called. An awesome OL, talented HBs, and a QB that is so good at improv could work with even the worst OC.

I know most here hate Bell, but he'll be in his 3rd year with his second off-season, so maybe there's a small chance he turns into a serviceable RT/RG.

[homestarunner93]

Again, even though we weren't in contention, wins are wins, and it's not like we won against teams that weren't trying to win as well. We lost several close games early in the season due to atrocious offensive play-calling.

Captain needs to be re-signed, but he should probably be allowed to test FA first. We should offer him a good contract for a NB, but let him look elsewhere to see that no other team wants him as a dedicated starting CB. No way he deserves an outrageous contract, even by NB standards.

What exactly are the Panthers missing in FA? Potential bust OTs, like Long? I'd love to have Long, but not at the risk of our franchise being in jeopardy for the next few years, plus his injuries are now a major turn-off. I doubt the rest of the upper-tier OTs leave their current teams. Byrd would be awesome for FS, but it's not like a FS's contract is out of the question even if he did come here. Our best hope for FA is to find a diamond in the rough like D.Edwards last year.

Obviously it's not ideal to have the youth we have at CB starting, but assuming we have the same DL (possibly more improved if we have an added DT in the first round), plus our LBs, it's possible for the team to be a top 15-20 defense, which if the offense can play like the top 10 offense it can be, that will be just fine.

No, wins aren't wins. Wins mean nothing when the ultimate goal -- making the playoffs so that you can have a chance to win the SB -- is out of reach.

I don't want us to overpay a middling talent like Captain Munnerlyn, but at the same time, if you lose him on top of Gamble...you're in horrible shape at CB.

The Panthers are missing the potential to improve the team because of the horrible cap situation they're in. I don't want to overspend on a FA, but it's going to be tedious even to add a decent veteran on a one or two year contract.

Just fine to maybe compete for a playoff spot, if we're lucky and everything goes according to plan. Not exactly awe-inspiring.

- Our coaching staff is now worse? I forgot, you already know how next season is going to go -- forgot about your mystical powers. The fact of the matter is we have no idea whether this staff is going to be worse or not. We don't know what kinds of plays Shula is going to call. We do know what kinds of plays Chud called, and for the first half of the season we hated them. Who's to say Shula won't do a better job of play-calling? Who's to say Proehl won't have an easier time relating his relatively recent game experience to the WRs than the older Graves? Who's to say Skipper won't work with Shula to improve the running attack?

- Why not hire a new QB coach? Because Shula already has a (presumably positive) relationship with Newton. Why bring someone else to put in between the two?

- How is promoting from within cheap? Maybe, just maybe, they're qualified for the job?? Maybe it's easier (i.e., a smoother transition) for the entire coaching staff if they keep known entities at those positions. Do we know that those guys didn't see a raise along with the promotion? I'd be willing to bet they're making more money as a result of the promotion. Oh, right, here's where you complain about Rivera favoring "his guys", as if any coach in the world doesn't favor the guys who he's familiar with.

- I think you're chalking too much up to failure before anything actually happens. Truth is: we don't know whether these decisions are going to be failures or successes, and we won't until at least midway through next season.

- You bench young players if you think they'll learn more watching, or if you think they're not working hard enough to maintain their starting spot. You can call that the "doghouse", but it's Rivera's job to keep his guys working hard -- making it clear that he won't tolerate anything less than 100% is definitely one way to achieve that. Growing up, I saw star players on my teams relegated to bench players because they weren't working hard enough. You know what happened? They worked harder and got better because of it. Rivera has done a terrific job of keeping guys motivated, and if he has send a message to a player who isn't working as hard, he absolutely should do so.

- That we're pretty much screwed in free agency sucks, but when do we ever sign anyone other than a "plug-and-play type veteran"? Ron Edwards is plug-and-play, Dwan Edwards was a diamond in the rough, Geoff Hangartner is plug-and-play and had a history with the team. If you thought we were suddenly going to go out and spend big in free agency... well, I don't know where you got that idea.

- I guess there are different perspectives about "irrelevant" games. Personally, there's no such thing as an irrelevant game. You don't go into a game thinking "oh, this game doesn't matter", and neither does your opponent. These guys are professionals. You don't get to that level of play if you're ever willing to settle for anything less than 100% effort 100% of the time.

- There are lots of moves that need to be made. And I think you're right -- I don't see any way this team comes out ahead. That means we need some of our younger and less-experienced guys to step up. But that always going to be the case anyway.

The staff is worse by virtue of the fact that you're a coach down, forcing Shula to be the OC and the QB coach. There's no reason to think Shula will be a better OC than Chud, and he's certainly not nearly the football mind Chud was.

Because Shula won't have the opportunity to observe the offense from a more detached point since he's going to be a position coach as well as a coordinator. There's a reason other teams don't do this, and that's because it isn't a smart model.

Promoting from within, especially when it comes to guys that aren't necessarily being sought after by other teams, is definitely a cheap move. Of course they'll all get raises, but Shula is cheaper than a Jackson or Shurmur would be, Proehl is cheaper than an established WR coach would be (although I don't necessarily have a problem with him coaching WRs), and Rogers is definitely cheaper than an established ST coordinator would be.

Rivera benched Norman mid-game originally, so I'm not sure what makes you think he wasn't working hard. Rivera just holds petty grudges. Norman isn't the first one, and might not be the last.

There are different perspectives. Personally, it means very little to me to win a game when there is no benefit
in doing so.

Not exactly a winning formula in a "show-me" year for this coaching staff.

[N.E.PanthersFan]

The staff is worse by virtue of the fact that you're a coach down, forcing Shula to be the OC and the QB coach. There's no reason to think Shula will be a better OC than Chud, and he's certainly not nearly the football mind Chud was.

Because Shula won't have the opportunity to observe the offense from a more detached point since he's going to be a position coach as well as a coordinator. There's a reason other teams don't do this, and that's because it isn't a smart model.

I don't disagree that things will be more difficult for Shula in particular as both QB coach and OC, but I'm hesitant to suggest we're doomed because it. I don't mean to suggest that Shula would be better than Chud; I'm merely suggesting that we don't really know. I just don't know we should jump the gun and anoint Shula a failure before he's even called a play. Even if he does call plays conservatively like he did in TB, we have the RBs to support that. That said, I don't think that will be the outcome, but I have no basis for really suggesting that other than Shula having learned under Chud for the last couple of years.

Promoting from within, especially when it comes to guys that aren't necessarily being sought after by other teams, is definitely a cheap move. Of course they'll all get raises, but Shula is cheaper than a Jackson or Shurmur would be, Proehl is cheaper than an established WR coach would be (although I don't necessarily have a problem with him coaching WRs), and Rogers is definitely cheaper than an established ST coordinator would be.

I see where you're going with that, and I can see why one would be inclined to think that. All great coaches (and even the merely good ones) had to prove themselves at some point. If you're Rivera, one would think you'd go with more experience. The only reason I can think of for taking a different route is if you prefer the comfort level of not getting a new guy adjusted to the team. As far as ST coach is concerned, I thought we interviewed a couple of guys for that spot -- not sure what came of that.

Rivera benched Norman mid-game originally, so I'm not sure what makes you think he wasn't working hard. Rivera just holds petty grudges. Norman isn't the first one, and might not be the last.

There are different perspectives. Personally, it means very little to me to win a game when there is no benefit
in doing so.

Not exactly a winning formula in a "show-me" year for this coaching staff.

If I remember correctly, Rivera benched Norman after the first quarter (or first half) of a game in which he started playing a lot of players that hadn't seen much playing time previously. I don't think Norman was the only one. Maybe it had nothing to do with working hard, maybe it had nothing to do with getting other players so playing time (which is what Rivera claimed, if I recall), but I'm sure there's something more there than a whimsical "I just don't feel like playing him anymore".

Definitely agree that our cap situation is not a winning formula right now. Here's to hoping Gettleman figures it out.

[N.E.PanthersFan]

Joe Person just tweeted that the Panthers are looking to hire a QBs coach. Someone in organization/coaching staff must have been listening to homestar.

[homestarunner93]

I don't disagree that things will be more difficult for Shula in particular as both QB coach and OC, but I'm hesitant to suggest we're doomed because it. I don't mean to suggest that Shula would be better than Chud; I'm merely suggesting that we don't really know. I just don't know we should jump the gun and anoint Shula a failure before he's even called a play. Even if he does call plays conservatively like he did in TB, we have the RBs to support that. That said, I don't think that will be the outcome, but I have no basis for really suggesting that other than Shula having learned under Chud for the last couple of years.



I see where you're going with that, and I can see why one would be inclined to think that. All great coaches (and even the merely good ones) had to prove themselves at some point. If you're Rivera, one would think you'd go with more experience. The only reason I can think of for taking a different route is if you prefer the comfort level of not getting a new guy adjusted to the team. As far as ST coach is concerned, I thought we interviewed a couple of guys for that spot -- not sure what came of that.



If I remember correctly, Rivera benched Norman after the first quarter (or first half) of a game in which he started playing a lot of players that hadn't seen much playing time previously. I don't think Norman was the only one. Maybe it had nothing to do with working hard, maybe it had nothing to do with getting other players so playing time (which is what Rivera claimed, if I recall), but I'm sure there's something more there than a whimsical "I just don't feel like playing him anymore".

Definitely agree that our cap situation is not a winning formula right now. Here's to hoping Gettleman figures it out.

This is now a moot point, but a model where you play one assistant down is a model for failure. Especially considering your head coach is a defensive guy, and this would be on the offensive staff.

Sure, all great coaches had to prove themselves, but do you really think it's a good idea to have multiple guys like that on a staff that has little stability beyond 2013, and is in a "show-me" year where it's do or die for most, if not all of them? I don't think it is.

That's fine if you want to see more players, but why are you benching the young CB on the team with the most potential? That is just non-nonsensical. You don't bench your best prospect at a position just so you can look at a bunch of lesser prospects that probably aren't even going to stick longterm.

Joe Person just tweeted that the Panthers are looking to hire a QBs coach. Someone in organization/coaching staff must have been listening to homestar.

I saw that. Nice to see someone came to their senses, at least in terms of this situation.

[NCBoSoxfan21]

Well all I know is that when Chud finally STOPPED running his stubborn/ineffective trick and pony (no run/down field) system we serious offensive improvement. So what's bad about getting away from that type of play calling? Shula has been the offense and worked closely with Cam for two years, I think he can handle it about as good as anyone available not named Hue Jackson.

[CarolinaFan87]

Shula is a bad idea too. Especially when you aren't even hiring another assistant. Just giving him the OC role on top of the QB coach role. It's a horrible idea. Like NC said, it has JR's hands all over it. If you're going to suck, don't spend a bunch of money doing so.

Cutting Gamble is a huge loss. He's a good CB. He's had his struggles staying healthy, but we need him. Especially considering that Rivera decided he hates Josh Norman, and Captain Munnerlyn is a FA (and shouldn't be starting on the outside anyways). You thought the secondary struggled this year, just wait.

FA isn't going to positively influence this roster. We have too much money tied up. Cutting Gamble won't even get us under the cap, I don't think. Then you have to pay draft picks. Then you have guys like Munnerlyn and Dwan that you would like to bring back. The mistakes of our former supposed cap guru Hurney are about to come to a head in 2013, and it is going to be bad. Very bad.

Panthers Hired Ken Dorsey to be the QBs Coach so I guess you jumped the gun on that one. Assumptions are a dangerous thing.

Panthers hired Ken Dorsey as QBs coach.
We don't normally post position coach hires, but it's notable because Dorsey helped train Cam Newton in the run up to the 2011 draft. Apparently approving of his work, the Panthers hired him as a scout later that year. Dorsey is replacing Mike Shula, who was promoted to offensive coordinator after Rob Chudzinski left for Cleveland. A former Miami Hurricanes standout, Dorsey played under Chudzinski at both "The U" and with the Browns. Just 31, he has no previous coaching experience.
Source: Charlotte Observer
Jan 22 - 9:37 PM

[homestarunner93]

Well all I know is that when Chud finally STOPPED running his stubborn/ineffective trick and pony (no run/down field) system we serious offensive improvement. So what's bad about getting away from that type of play calling? Shula has been the offense and worked closely with Cam for two years, I think he can handle it about as good as anyone available not named Hue Jackson.

How do you know you are getting away from it? Regardless, I'll take a guy that has actually called plays before rather than one that doesn't in the situation the Panthers face in 2013. Shula doesn't have time to grow into this role. He's going to have to be damn good from day one, otherwise this whole staff will be sent packing.

Panthers Hired Ken Dorsey to be the QBs Coach so I guess you jumped the gun on that one. Assumptions are a dangerous thing.

Panthers hired Ken Dorsey as QBs coach.
We don't normally post position coach hires, but it's notable because Dorsey helped train Cam Newton in the run up to the 2011 draft. Apparently approving of his work, the Panthers hired him as a scout later that year. Dorsey is replacing Mike Shula, who was promoted to offensive coordinator after Rob Chudzinski left for Cleveland. A former Miami Hurricanes standout, Dorsey played under Chudzinski at both "The U" and with the Browns. Just 31, he has no previous coaching experience.
Source: Charlotte Observer
Jan 22 - 9:37 PM

That wasn't my assumption, bud.

Joe Person ‏@josephperson
My understanding is Shula will remain in his role as QBs coach while taking over as OC and calling the plays. #panthers

He amended that statement today, probably when he heard a hire was imminent.

[CarolinaFan87]

How do you know you are getting away from it? Regardless, I'll take a guy that has actually called plays before rather than one that doesn't in the situation the Panthers face in 2013. Shula doesn't have time to grow into this role. He's going to have to be damn good from day one, otherwise this whole staff will be sent packing.



That wasn't my assumption, bud.



He amended that statement today, probably when he heard a hire was imminent.

The Post I replied to made no mention of Joe Person ‏@josephperson
My understanding is Shula will remain in his role as QBs coach while taking over as OC and calling the plays. #panthers So that is why it seemed like your assumption.