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  1. #31
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    Just curious, why should people trust your "eye test" or even pundits over a weighted statistical analysis? Michael Jordan was the greatest even and look at the team he's built. I'm sorry if numbers upset you but calling Hollinger a "geek" is a pretty weak argument to completely ignore those rankings

    As for his play, the team lost a lot of games during that assist streak. He rebounds a lot, has triple doubles, but if you gave any GM a choice of a guard to rebuild around I doubt any of them would choose Rondo. He's good, often great, but his game has glaring deficiencies and it's reflected in his personal stats. I'm not even talking win shares, +/- or anything crazy...

    This was Bags' point, I think. There is in fact evidence to support this claim. Personally, and I already said this, I think Rondo is a top 5 point guard. But if you're going by raw data, he's #12. Apparently.

  2. #32
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    You say apparently, which means it doesn't sound like your sold on the "data" either. I am not going by any "eye" test. If you're the best assist PG in the league, the 2nd best rebounding PG in the league, that in no way translates into the 12th best point guard. Assists, points, and rebounds are the top 3 stats in the game. He's leading all point guards in one of them, and he's 2nd in another. For you to say that he's 12th by the PER data is a weak argument. You can't believe in it yourself if you're still saying he's top 5, now can you?


    "Stats are for losers. The final score is for winners." - Bill Belichick

  3. #33
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    Well, Bags brought up the point guard rankings. I'm just trying to say he's not wrong necessarily.

    Ok. Lemme try again. You listed his his triple-doubles and double-doubles as a stat, when that's just repeating the categories he is very strong in (since a lot of PGs already score 10ppg). Endulge me, and ignore those for a second

    As you said,

    Rondo #1 in assists
    Rondo #2 in FG%
    Rondo #2 in rebounds
    Rondo #7 in steals

    But you failed to mention,

    Rondo #19 in scoring
    Rondo #84 in FT%
    Rondo #45 in 3pt%
    Rondo #1 in turnovers per game

    I didn't do the calculations myself, but it is not unreasonable to have Rondo ranked 12th overall when you average ALL of those categories. This is indisputable.

    But, like others do, I look at his passing ability, his triple double games, his playoff records, his heart, all the things that make stats matter less. In my opinion he's top 5, but if you want to "Moneyball" a team from the ground up there are 11 other point guards you should start with.

    Can we squash this now?

  4. #34
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    You would take 11 other PGs when building a team from the ground up?

    that's nuts. Rondo is one of the best distributors at the PG position, most likely the best. Sure that comes from being surrounded by great teammates. Is he a good scorer? not even remotely. his jump shot is still largely inconsistent, and he scores most of his points around the rim. He's not really suited to be a #1 or even a #2 option. Rondo should be a teams #3 scoring option at best. But to take 11 over PGs over him? That's just silly.

    See if I wanted to Moneyball a team there's only ONE PG I would take and that's Kyrie Irving. Young, smallest contract, solid distributor, and can be suited to be the #1 option.
    Besides...that's a silly scenario anyways.



    SOON



  5. #35
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    It's a completely silly scenario. In practice Rondo seems to be a top 5 point guard, I guess I have to say it again.

    ON PAPER, there are probably 10-11 other point guards who currently have more balanced, effective games. Based on their stats alone, nothing else--not playoff success, not court-vision, not pay scale, just stats.

    Aside from guys on rookie scales like Kyrie or Lillard, I think Tony Parker is the best point guard this year in terms of "bang for your buck"

  6. #36
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    Rondo is probably the best passing PG in the NBA

    unfortunately he needs scorers around him to really thrive. If he's a teams only option on offense, that offense would fail miserably. Give him effective shooters and he's a top PG.



    SOON



  7. #37
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    We all know Rondo and KG are starters cause Rose is hurt and C's aren't at a premium in the East since Howard left.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    I can't even believe you are serious right now.

    The PG leading the league in assists, who just dropped 30 points tonight, is the 11th best PG in the league??
    You're going off of one game? His assist average has dropped a ton lately (not the worst thing for the team), but Rondo has also been missing from long stretches of games, and his shooting fell off after a good start (which I mentioned several times to date). I can't believe you are challenging me w/o actually looking outside of your primed up belief of what he is. You are missing the forest for your own trees.

    That's about as dumb as calling the league leader in home runs the 11th best power hitter in baseball.
    Assists do not define "best PG" anywhere near as much as HR for a power hitter - poor analogy.

    Show of hands if there's anyone on these forums right now who doesn't think bags is FOS.
    I don't care what people think based on their being a Celtic fan, or what Rondo was doing earlier in the season. I care about what people know about his play since this game on 12/24 to before last night when is when I started this.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by xk4 View Post
    It's a completely silly scenario. In practice Rondo seems to be a top 5 point guard, I guess I have to say it again.

    ON PAPER, there are probably 10-11 other point guards who currently have more balanced, effective games. Based on their stats alone, nothing else--not playoff success, not court-vision, not pay scale, just stats.

    Aside from guys on rookie scales like Kyrie or Lillard, I think Tony Parker is the best point guard this year in terms of "bang for your buck"
    Thank you. That's all I am talking about 2012-2013. When people get put on the AS team that is supposed to be the consideration, not the .008 share of the MVP he got last year (or whatever it was), or some triple double he got the year before.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    You would take 11 other PGs when building a team from the ground up?

    that's nuts. Rondo is one of the best distributors at the PG position, most likely the best. Sure that comes from being surrounded by great teammates. Is he a good scorer? not even remotely. his jump shot is still largely inconsistent, and he scores most of his points around the rim. He's not really suited to be a #1 or even a #2 option. Rondo should be a teams #3 scoring option at best. But to take 11 over PGs over him? That's just silly.
    Silly? Did you take time out to look at the 10 guys I suggest are ahead of him?

    PG's are basketball players before they are PG's:

    1. All players are called to play D. Rondo has a great reputation as a defender based on some really great years as a defender. However this year, for whatever reason (coaching request, laziness, injury, ?) his defense has gone into the toilet and he is easily at best middle of the pack among PG's when say 3 years ago he was #1 or #2.

    2. All players are called on to play offense. That includes passing (gold star) and shooting (awful usually). Until 12/24 Rondo seemed to have better mechanics, percentages, confidence and results on his FG's outside of the paint that I've ever seen him have. Even his FT's which was a bit below some earlier years, seemed to be taken with good and consistent mechanics. But he fell off from 12/24 onward, didn't he?

    3. Funny how many Rondo fans want to pooh pooh his shooting issues and ignore my points on taking pressure off the other 4 players on the team, making his passing more effective because they worry about his shot and avoid teams not playing LAL D which is let Rondo shoot whenever he wants - but then go ahead and trumpet his rebounding. His rebounding is great, but year in and year out since 2010-2011 there is usually 5 or more other PG's within 1 RPG of Rondo, the Reb% of all of these guys and Rondo compared to the team are marginal. Therefore Rondo's rebounding does not come near to making up for his shooting problems career wise, or since 12/24 (not including last night).

    So what Rondo has been so far on average in his career:

    1. Top 3 PG defender
    2. One of the poorest shooting PG's
    3. Top 2 passer/assist gatherer
    4. Top 3 rebounder
    5. Big game guy, that has an awful propensity to not show up for routine boring games.

    This year he seemed to fix his shooting. But since 12/24 his shooting is down, his D has been down all year, his assists have slipped a bit. He's had some big TOV games as well, but I'm not sure if he's gotten worse with that lately.

    He's an inconsistent guy and tough to grade. If he could shoot like Curry, maintain his D and passing he might be a top 5 PG all time. But he's not. And now that he seems only to be maxing out on passing and rebounding since 12/24, how is he an AS? He isn't on paper, he isn't on the floor. He was an AS before 12/24 (in part because the East is weaker in great PG's), he's slipped - a lot since. Sorry, I guess it's my role to show that King Rondo has lots of holes in his game - very meaningful ones.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-19-2013 at 11:44 AM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    OMFG. What stats would these be? He's leading the NBA in assists. Are you serious?? 12th???
    Are you serious in equating assists as the main criteria in PG rating? If not, then why are writing this comment?

    What pray tell are your criteria for PG (AKA basketball player)? And where this year do you rank Rondo? And if it's higher than 10, let's see the logic?


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69centers View Post
    Magic Johnson says Rondo's the best all around PG in the league.
    Look at all the garbage comments that can be found on any topic you like - like some of the sputum that's been uttered on PP the last 5 years - pathetic.

    Chris Paul for instance is building a career as an all time top 5 PG, and he toasts Rondo in "advanced metrics", and has less assists than Rondo.

    Why no comments on Rondo piss poor on ball D this year? Surely you have noticed even through the green lenses you sport.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdude View Post
    lolno. That's rediculous.

    1.) Paul
    2.) Rose
    3.) Westbrook
    4.) Deron
    5.) Parker
    6a.) Rondo
    6b.) Irving



    Calderon? Calderon?

    Why are you even rating Rose, he hasn't played a game all year - talk about LOL. I didn't give or ask for the best over the past 5 years, or 2 years. I said this year.

    BTW Curry, DWill and Conley are easily ahead of Rondo this year - so far. Lowry might be top 5-6 if he was healthy all year.

    Calderon as usual isn't playing much D, but all of his shooting percentages are huge, and his Assists per 36 is 9.7, just 1.0 below Rondo's mark. That's enough. Plus in advanced stat he stomps Rondo too.
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-19-2013 at 12:01 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  14. #44
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    BTW, Rondo has the worst TOV% in the NBA of any player over 1000 minutes (he has 1264) at 22.3. Jeremy Lin is the 2nd PG over 1000 minutes with the highest TOV at 20.3%. In raw TOV/G, Rondo is 3rd worst.

    Rondo is 2nd in PG rebounding per game behind Westbrook. Also behind Westbrook, Lowry, and Bledsoe in Reb% and Reb/36 totals

    Rondo is 6th in STL/G and 9th in STL/36 among PG's over 1000 minutes on the year.

    Rondo is 29th out of 29 with PG's with more than 700 Min/Played in FT%

    FYI
    Last edited by bagwell368; 01-19-2013 at 12:31 PM.


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

  15. #45
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    Advanced Stats:

    Rondo 9th in WS
    Rondo 11th in WS/48

    Rondo in OWS 15th
    Rondo in DWS 4th


    6/27/09: “We expect [Rondo] to play by the rules and be a leader as a point guard. We need him to be more of a leader,” Ainge said. “There were just a couple situations where he was late this year, I don’t know if he was sitting in his car, but showed up late and the rest of the team was there. We have team rules and you have to be on time. He was fined for being late, he said he was stuck in traffic, and it’s just unacceptable.”

    Some jerks never learn.....

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