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  1. #1
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    The Disconnect In Team Policies

    Principal owner Hal Steinbrenner created a bit of a stir last week when he showed a remarkable lack of awareness by saying he was “surprised to hear that there’s [fan anger] if you see what we’ve done this off-season.” Other than re-sign a few of their own older players and import the downside of Kevin Youkilis‘ career, the Yankees haven’t done much of anything this offseason. They didn’t even maintain the status quo — the pitching staff is the same and the offense is weaker because Nick Swisher and Russell Martin were allowed to depart.

    Anyway, let’s move on from that nonsense and talk about something else Hal said last week. Here are the specific quotes, courtesy of Brian Costa…

    “I’ve been resolute that [getting under the $189M luxury tax threshold in 2014] is our goal. And that is our goal … I don’t see [staying under the tax threshold] being less of a goal (in the future). I believe that you don’t have to have a $220M payroll to win a world championship, and you shouldn’t have to.”

    “I’m not a big believer in extensions. There’s exceptions to every rule, but I’m just not a big believer in extensions. I’m worried about this year.”

    These two ideas, getting under the luxury tax threshold and avoiding contract extensions, are technically mutually exclusive. In reality, the two ideas are at odds with each other. Getting under the luxury tax means the team will operate within defined financial limits, but avoiding extensions means the team will also have to pay market value for players. Paying market value and having a hard salary limit are not going to mix well, even with a payroll as large as $189M.

    Right now this is not much of an issue. The Yankees only have two legitimate extension candidates in Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes, and the latter is far from a no-brainer. Both are one year away from free agency and Cano is a special case because he’s an elite player due a long-term, nine-figure commitment one way or the other. Perhaps the team should consider extensions for Brett Gardner and David Robertson (three years, $12M for both?), but other youngsters like Ivan Nova, David Phelps, Eduardo Nunez, and Michael Pineda haven’t done enough to warrant any kind of guaranteed commitment. Not yet, anyway.

    The Yankees, specifically Hal since he made the comments, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to stay under the luxury tax threshold in the future and that’s fine even if I disagree with it, but they also don’t want to hand out contract extensions to young players. They can do both, but it won’t be easy. The team saved millions of dollars by buying out Cano’s arbitration years with an extension six years ago, and they should be more open to doing the same in the future. There’s a disconnect between the team’s two policies right now, even if breaking one will help them accomplish the (much more lucrative) other.

    Source: http://riveraveblues.com/2013/01/the...olicies-81364/

  2. #2
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    big spending hasnt worked. why not try to spend smarter
    30 Team Stadium Checklist: 10 to go

    1) Yankees 2) Orioles 3) Rays 4) Red Sox 5) Mets 6) Braves 7) Phillies 8) Nationals 9) Marlins 10) Pirates 11) Padres 12) Astros 13) Mariners 14) Twins 15) Cubs 16) White Sox 17) Cardinals 18) Indians 19) Tigers 20) Royals

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    Principal owner Hal Steinbrenner created a bit of a stir last week when he showed a remarkable lack of awareness by saying he was “surprised to hear that there’s [fan anger] if you see what we’ve done this off-season.” Other than re-sign a few of their own older players and import the downside of Kevin Youkilis‘ career, the Yankees haven’t done much of anything this offseason. They didn’t even maintain the status quo — the pitching staff is the same and the offense is weaker because Nick Swisher and Russell Martin were allowed to depart.

    Anyway, let’s move on from that nonsense and talk about something else Hal said last week. Here are the specific quotes, courtesy of Brian Costa…

    “I’ve been resolute that [getting under the $189M luxury tax threshold in 2014] is our goal. And that is our goal … I don’t see [staying under the tax threshold] being less of a goal (in the future). I believe that you don’t have to have a $220M payroll to win a world championship, and you shouldn’t have to.”

    “I’m not a big believer in extensions. There’s exceptions to every rule, but I’m just not a big believer in extensions. I’m worried about this year.”

    These two ideas, getting under the luxury tax threshold and avoiding contract extensions, are technically mutually exclusive. In reality, the two ideas are at odds with each other. Getting under the luxury tax means the team will operate within defined financial limits, but avoiding extensions means the team will also have to pay market value for players. Paying market value and having a hard salary limit are not going to mix well, even with a payroll as large as $189M.

    Right now this is not much of an issue. The Yankees only have two legitimate extension candidates in Robinson Cano and Phil Hughes, and the latter is far from a no-brainer. Both are one year away from free agency and Cano is a special case because he’s an elite player due a long-term, nine-figure commitment one way or the other. Perhaps the team should consider extensions for Brett Gardner and David Robertson (three years, $12M for both?), but other youngsters like Ivan Nova, David Phelps, Eduardo Nunez, and Michael Pineda haven’t done enough to warrant any kind of guaranteed commitment. Not yet, anyway.

    The Yankees, specifically Hal since he made the comments, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to stay under the luxury tax threshold in the future and that’s fine even if I disagree with it, but they also don’t want to hand out contract extensions to young players. They can do both, but it won’t be easy. The team saved millions of dollars by buying out Cano’s arbitration years with an extension six years ago, and they should be more open to doing the same in the future. There’s a disconnect between the team’s two policies right now, even if breaking one will help them accomplish the (much more lucrative) other.

    Source: http://riveraveblues.com/2013/01/the...olicies-81364/
    I've been saying this for a long, long time.

    Hals is painting us (and I definately believe he is doing it willingly) into a financial corner which will severely limit our leverage in just about all negotiations going forward.

    As hard as I've been on Cashman, most of those errors have cleared themselves from the books and Hal seems to be limiting his abilities as a GM going forward.

    Cano is going to be the tip of the iceberg if this continues to play out, especially when attempting to leverage against other team's anticipated FA's.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  4. #4
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    LOL

    The painting is already got the Yanks in the corner. The Yanks have spent the most on payroll of anyone since 2000... and what do the Yanks have to show for it? 1 world series that had some very good, overpriced talent timing... but now 1 of the 3 big names is already gone (though his salary is still on the books), another whose batting average is getting below the mendoza line and he has become a dead pull hitter.. CC is the only one still doing what he was signed to do... but nobody knows how much longer that will continue.

    Stop whining... the yanks are spending smarter going forward.. yes, the salary will drop, but at the same time many of these so called stars who now are only collecting a paycheck for very little return are being purged. Yes, as fans it hurts a bit, but in the long run the yanks will be better...

    What I find the funniest is that most of the people complaining are not complaining so much how the Yanks will play, but because they want to see moves JUST TO SEE MOVES... Which is the dumbest thing the Yanks can do. Those same people are the same ones who complain when the Young players are not given a chance... Yeah, the Yanks traded Montero.. and with how he played in 2012, the Yanks would NOT have gotten the return they did... yes, those players when down early last year, but their upsides at trade time were sky high.

    As nice as signing Robbie long term may sound, he is getting at that age where you can only expect good things for 2-4 more years... but he has that PIG for an agent who won't even start talking until you bring up 6-7 year deals.

    The smart money is on letting him walk. Yes, in the short term it hurts.. until LA is paying him to DH (and not very well) 5 years down the road. The Yanks need young talent to step up. Hopefully, some of it will show they are ready... too bad much of it will be starting on the DL.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    LOL

    The painting is already got the Yanks in the corner. The Yanks have spent the most on payroll of anyone since 2000... and what do the Yanks have to show for it? 1 world series that had some very good, overpriced talent timing... but now 1 of the 3 big names is already gone (though his salary is still on the books), another whose batting average is getting below the mendoza line and he has become a dead pull hitter.. CC is the only one still doing what he was signed to do... but nobody knows how much longer that will continue.

    Stop whining... the yanks are spending smarter going forward.. yes, the salary will drop, but at the same time many of these so called stars who now are only collecting a paycheck for very little return are being purged. Yes, as fans it hurts a bit, but in the long run the yanks will be better...

    What I find the funniest is that most of the people complaining are not complaining so much how the Yanks will play, but because they want to see moves JUST TO SEE MOVES... Which is the dumbest thing the Yanks can do. Those same people are the same ones who complain when the Young players are not given a chance... Yeah, the Yanks traded Montero.. and with how he played in 2012, the Yanks would NOT have gotten the return they did... yes, those players when down early last year, but their upsides at trade time were sky high.

    As nice as signing Robbie long term may sound, he is getting at that age where you can only expect good things for 2-4 more years... but he has that PIG for an agent who won't even start talking until you bring up 6-7 year deals.

    The smart money is on letting him walk. Yes, in the short term it hurts.. until LA is paying him to DH (and not very well) 5 years down the road. The Yanks need young talent to step up. Hopefully, some of it will show they are ready... too bad much of it will be starting on the DL.
    How is Cano going to DH for the Dodgers?


    And so, a new era begins.....

  6. #6
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    I agree w bfrap on Cano.

    However, Montero was playing in a greatly weakened lineup in a vastly different stadium and environment. Without lineup protection, and quite possibly motivation, who knows the intangibles that plagued him last year. He looked very promising in his limited appearances with us at the big league level.

    Michael Pineda has not looked very promising at the major league levels with us.

    As far as the salary constraints, let's be honest with ourselves in that without ARod there would be no 2009. Now, he certainly is and will remain a contractual albatross but for your philosophy of buying on the cheap to be effective, you have to have a staff that knows what they are doing and not just how to throw copious amounts of financial resources at the problem. If Hal wants to sign small and efficient maybe, just maybe mind you, he should build a demonstrateable resume of actually being able to accomplish this successfully.

    Thus far, we have fallen far short.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    LOL

    The painting is already got the Yanks in the corner. The Yanks have spent the most on payroll of anyone since 2000... and what do the Yanks have to show for it? 1 world series that had some very good, overpriced talent timing... but now 1 of the 3 big names is already gone (though his salary is still on the books), another whose batting average is getting below the mendoza line and he has become a dead pull hitter.. CC is the only one still doing what he was signed to do... but nobody knows how much longer that will continue.

    Stop whining... the yanks are spending smarter going forward.. yes, the salary will drop, but at the same time many of these so called stars who now are only collecting a paycheck for very little return are being purged. Yes, as fans it hurts a bit, but in the long run the yanks will be better...

    What I find the funniest is that most of the people complaining are not complaining so much how the Yanks will play, but because they want to see moves JUST TO SEE MOVES... Which is the dumbest thing the Yanks can do. Those same people are the same ones who complain when the Young players are not given a chance... Yeah, the Yanks traded Montero.. and with how he played in 2012, the Yanks would NOT have gotten the return they did... yes, those players when down early last year, but their upsides at trade time were sky high.

    As nice as signing Robbie long term may sound, he is getting at that age where you can only expect good things for 2-4 more years... but he has that PIG for an agent who won't even start talking until you bring up 6-7 year deals.

    The smart money is on letting him walk. Yes, in the short term it hurts.. until LA is paying him to DH (and not very well) 5 years down the road. The Yanks need young talent to step up. Hopefully, some of it will show they are ready... too bad much of it will be starting on the DL.


    My problem is every DAMN team in the MLB generally extends there good players.

    But the Yankees don't.

    I'm not sitting here complaining; as you think based on the need too continue to insult me in threads based on my belief.

    But Hal is trying to hit this 189 mark and no longer go above it. I'm fine with that, but in order too really continue to put a quality team on the field, and keep it at 189 is by extending guys when they are younger, during their prime, 2-3 years before they hit FA, like other teams do. It's smart for business and it's good for the team, it enables the team too keep the payroll lower and have quality players. I don't see how that's complaining.
    Last edited by RCSownsU; 01-19-2013 at 02:53 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrap View Post
    What I find the funniest is that most of the people complaining are not complaining so much how the Yanks will play, but because they want to see moves JUST TO SEE MOVES... Which is the dumbest thing the Yanks can do. Those same people are the same ones who complain when the Young players are not given a chance... Yeah, the Yanks traded Montero.. and with how he played in 2012, the Yanks would NOT have gotten the return they did... yes, those players when down early last year, but their upsides at trade time were sky high.
    I don't think wanting an actual starting caliber C or an actual player to DH or a RH OF is making moves to make moves. Those are real needs on the team.

    What young kids are they giving a chance with the moves they have made so far? Possibly Romine? They've just signed reclamation projects in Youkilis and Ichiro.

    As for the Montero deal you can say the same thing about the guys we got no? With the 24 combined innings they pitched last year there is no way they could get someone like Montero even with the year he had.

  9. #9
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    I don't have an issue with Hal spending less money and being smarter with their signings, but I have not been given any indication on how they plan on implementing this new strategy. They just spent 12 million dollars on youkilis, for pete's sake. Is this an indication of how they plan on using their money wisely? What about 15 million for Hiroki and 7.5 million for Phil Hughes? You cannot say you're worried only about this year and not think about 2014 and beyond. Don't those years not count too? In order to effectively reduce salary while also being competitive on the field you have to start trading in some of your veterans for younger players. Trade Cano and sign Keppinger. Trade Granderson and Gardner, and acquire Bourjos and Morse. Trade Hughes and sign Carlos Villanueva. When you have no money to spend then you have to stock up on the farm or trade for younger players. That's just how it works.
    "I'm an administrator. I'm a good listener. I would not pass myself off as an evaluator of talent"

    - Brian Cashman, GM of the Yankees

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    My problem is every DAMN team in the MLB generally extends there good players.

    But the Yankees don't.

    I'm not sitting here complaining; as you think based on the need too continue to insult me in threads based on my belief.

    But Hal is trying to hit this 189 mark and no longer go above it. I'm fine with that, but in order too really continue to put a quality team on the field, and keep it at 189 is by extending guys when they are younger, during their prime, 2-3 years before they hit FA, like other teams do. It's smart for business and it's good for the team, it enables the team too keep the payroll lower and have quality players. I don't see how that's complaining.

    One thing you might have missed with Hal was that he said that while $189 million is the goal for 2014 it must be a great team as well....he said the team has to be good for the fans....

    So basically the young players must be ready to help keep the payroll under $189 but if they are not ready Hal will probably allow Cashman to spend a little...
    Nick

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    Quote Originally Posted by rrzubnyy View Post
    One thing you might have missed with Hal was that he said that while $189 million is the goal for 2014 it must be a great team as well....he said the team has to be good for the fans....

    So basically the young players must be ready to help keep the payroll under $189 but if they are not ready Hal will probably allow Cashman to spend a little...
    He thinks the moves that have made appease the fans.....

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylinkus View Post
    He thinks the moves that have made appease the fans.....
    But he also addressed the $189 million issue and it sounded like if the team is not good enough he will allow Cashman to spend more than $189 million....we shall see...

    As for as 2013, the team is fine if they stay healthy......
    Nick

  13. #13
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    the fact the Yanks won't extend players earlier in their careers so the can get them at a discount is absolutely stupid. Their going to have to change their business model if they really plan on getting under 189 by next yr. Most teams that don't have Boras repping their best player extended their better young players early.

    As hopeful as we are that our best prospect reach their ceilings it rarely happens and i think thats alot of what Hal is counting on. Cashman has made his fair share of mistakes also but for example letting Robbie get to his walk yr before they start talking about an extension is stupid and thats Hals fault. Its only going to paint us into a tighter corner. Whats even worse is that Hal said he would trade the prospects for J UP but didn't want to pay his salary for the next 3 yrs. If one of the players we were willing to trade turnout as good as J Up would be a miracle. I just don't think the Yankee upper management and farm system coaches are doing a very good job

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCSownsU View Post
    My problem is every DAMN team in the MLB generally extends there good players.

    But the Yankees don't.

    I'm not sitting here complaining; as you think based on the need too continue to insult me in threads based on my belief.

    But Hal is trying to hit this 189 mark and no longer go above it. I'm fine with that, but in order too really continue to put a quality team on the field, and keep it at 189 is by extending guys when they are younger, during their prime, 2-3 years before they hit FA, like other teams do. It's smart for business and it's good for the team, it enables the team too keep the payroll lower and have quality players. I don't see how that's complaining.
    Um.........yeah.

    Ok.

    First are you accusing me of constantly arguing with you or frap.

    I can 100% assure you that I have absolutely nothing against you (unless you are Mssr. Cashman posting in cognito). I hardly look at the posting history and say....."there's RC, let me get my daily verbal barrage in to psychologically induce a beat down..."

    Not at all man.

    I WILL say that my three biggest complaints, overall and overarching, concerning this franchise are:

    1) Cashman is utterly incompetent when analyzing, developing, scouting, and negotiating for available talent. He's a good executive and personnel manager and an utter farce as a baseball analyst.

    2) Seriously despise all that has become Cano. To me he is the complete manifestation of the Anti-Jeter. Non-clutch, lazy, unfocused, rally killer, leadership mute. AND, and this is a big freakin AND, I absolutely, unequivocally, 100% fuc£ing cannot stand or stomach that piece oh sh-t open-mouthed facial f@cking gape he gets like a petulant little c--t every time he lazily hacks his way back to the bench in the clutch.

    3) The galling lack of long term franchise vision going forward. We seem (and this article certainly doesn't show me anything to the contrary) to be stuck in a perpetual small time signing, repeated failed developmental prospect, positional backlog cycle with no clear long game vision going forward.

    I have been pretty consistant IMO in arguing these points so don't take it like I'm singling you out personally. If you happen to fall on the opposite sides ofthis arguement then that may account for your perception that I'm riding you in these forums which I can assure you I am not.
    Last edited by sauronthepower; 01-18-2013 at 11:49 PM.


    And so, a new era begins.....

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rylinkus View Post
    He thinks the moves that have made appease the fans.....
    And that they werethe best moves available on the market.


    And so, a new era begins.....

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