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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Every team has prospects beyond the top tier guys. And the M's do have a good farm. I'm just saying it's a lot easier when you can draft Zunino (3rd overall), Hultzen (second overall) and Ackley (2nd overall) in 3 of the past 4 years.



    I didn't say it was a bad move, I said it doesn't make as much sense given how many 1B/DH types the Mariners now have.



    Which is exactly what I said.
    The Mariners have more depth and talent beyond the top than most teams and two of their top guys, Walker and Franklin, are guys that most teams passed on first. There are plenty of teams who've picked near the top over the past few years and they don't have what Seattle has.

    Morales made perfect sense. There was plenty of space and AB's available at 1B/DH when he was acquired. You cannot include Morse in the evaluation of that move. Also all signs point to the player he gave up being a product of his home field. Zduriencik wins that one.
    Last edited by FWBrodie; 01-17-2013 at 09:23 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Probably true.

    But doesn't that fault lay with the GM? To use players correctly?

    Well the GM and management
    Yes, but Morrow's early years were the fault of Bavasi. Zduriencik was wrong to give up on him, although it seemed like more of a territory marking house cleaning move at the time.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWBrodie View Post
    The Mariners have more depth and talent beyond the top than most teams and two of their top guys, Walker and Franklin, are guys that most teams passed on first. There are plenty of teams who've picked near the top over the past few years and they don't have what Seattle has.
    The point remains that it is much easier to rebuild a farm system with 3 top 5 picks. They did a great job rebuilding the farm, but when GM Z continues to make poor decisions with the major league roster, it won't matter how deep the farm is.

    Morales made perfect sense. There was plenty of space and AB's available at 1B/DH when he was acquired. You cannot include Morse in the evaluation of that move. Also also all signs point to the player he gave up being a product of his home field. Zduriencik wins that one.
    Had you read my original comment you'll see I evaluated it based on who was there at the time. I didn't say it was a bad trade, just that it created a logjam of players at DH/1B (as at the time the M's had Montero, Smoak, Jaso and Morales fighting for 3 spots).


    Vic Mackey: You better figure out how much you hate me. And how you're going to deal with that. 'Cause I'm not going anywhere.

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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boozerguy47 View Post

    And yes, Jaso had a OBP near 400. But you do realize he was a situational player who is horrific against lefties, right?
    73% of the pitchers in baseball are right-handed. Doesn't mean much, especially if you've got a manager that understands how to use him. Oakland will.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    Had you read my original comment you'll see I evaluated it based on who was there at the time. I didn't say it was a bad trade, just that it created a logjam of players at DH/1B (as at the time the M's had Montero, Smoak, Jaso and Morales fighting for 3 spots).
    It was a massive upgrade. Smoak is an afterthought, Jaso sits over 30% of the time, Montero struggles against rhp. Really wasn't an issue. Excellent move.

  6. #111
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    I wanted the Yankees to get him really bad

    Mariners had a bit more to offer I guess.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWBrodie View Post
    73% of the pitchers in baseball are right-handed. Doesn't mean much, especially if you've got a manager that understands how to use him. Oakland will.
    Jaso is only going to face righties.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by NateyB24 View Post
    Morrow would not be the same pitcher he is for the Blue Jays he was toyed around with so much by Bavasi didn't even develop him properly.

    You got me with the Fister one but most if not all of us M fans were for trading either Vargas or Fister because i felt like they were going to regress.
    fister for furbush. best......trade......ever.......
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  9. #114
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    mariners still finish in 4th in my opinion
    30 Team Stadium Checklist: 10 to go

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  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinstripe power View Post
    mariners still finish in 4th in my opinion
    I have a feeling 4th could belong to Texas. They lost Young and Hamilton, and have done nothing to improve the rotation. Not saying Mariners are going to win the West or anything. Just saying 2 through 4 are going to be close and I bet we are 3rd with the roster we have now. Angels are going to win a lot of games.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by FWBrodie View Post
    It was a massive upgrade. Smoak is an afterthought, Jaso sits over 30% of the time, Montero struggles against rhp. Really wasn't an issue. Excellent move.
    You make it sound like Morales should be playing full time as well, which is mildly amusing. You criticize Jaso for being a platoon player, but that's exactly what Morales is. He's great vs RHP but he's awful against lefties. We're talking about a 1B/DH who over his career has a 365 wOBA vs RHP of 365 (127 wRC+) and a 303 wOBA vs LHP (84 wRC+).

    And just because the Seattle manager is a moron and sits Jaso doesn't justify the move either. A catcher in a platoon is the perfect scenario. At best a catcher is going to play 120 or so games a year. So you get yourself a good backup vs lefties, and sit Jaso more often against lefties. If Jaso only plays 3 out of every 4 games, he's still playing 121-122 games. Hell, if he only plays 70% of the time as you suggested, that's still 113 or so games. That's pretty standard for a starting catcher, so it's not an issue. So calling Jaso a platoon player and thinking that's somehow a negative is a poor way of looking at it.

    I do find your "Montero struggles against RHP" comment interesting. The Mariners aren't in a position where winning or making the playoffs is more important than Montero's development. So any move that stands to limit the number of at bats Montero gets against RHP is a bad one. He's not going to get better against RHP by sitting on the bench. So the fact that you're arguing that the move is good because Montero struggles against RHP is a shortsighted argument. The most important thing to the Seattle Mariners franchise is that Montero turns into an above average or even an elite hitter, so if a move like this reduces the number of ABs he gets against RHP, it's a bad one. I wouldn't doubt Morales ability to outhit Montero, but an extra win in 2013 shouldn't take priority over Montero's development.

    A similar argument could be made for Smoak. If you buy into his strong second half (111 wRC+) thanks to improved plate discipline and more power, an argument could be made that he deserves one more shot to prove himself. If Smoak can show that was legit and not a fluke, the M's can once again improve for the long term. Adding Morales, and eventually Ibanez/Bay and Morse limits those opportunities for Smoak. Maybe it was just a fluke and he'll revert to the lousy hitter he's been his entire career. But the M's will never know if they don't give him a final chance.

    Morales is an upgrade over both, but seeing as he's gone after the season there's little reason to be excited about the fact that he's taking away at bats from players who might or should have a bigger impact a few years down the line when the M's have a team that can actually compete for the playoffs.


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  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by drew_ellis_23 View Post
    I have a feeling 4th could belong to Texas. They lost Young and Hamilton, and have done nothing to improve the rotation. Not saying Mariners are going to win the West or anything. Just saying 2 through 4 are going to be close and I bet we are 3rd with the roster we have now. Angels are going to win a lot of games.
    rangers will be fine. losign hamilton isnt as big a lose as most think it will be. marniers are still behind them the A's and the angels
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twitchy View Post
    At best a catcher is going to play 120 or so games a year. So you get yourself a good backup vs lefties, and sit Jaso more often against lefties. If Jaso only plays 3 out of every 4 games, he's still playing 121-122 games.

    Yup, he gets his standard rest on games that a lefty starts. It's ideal. Then get a right handed hitting backup to start those other 40 games and you are going to have a very productive offensive catcher position.

    Can you imagine Jaso with Grandal, LuCroy, Gimenez or Flowers?

    It would be the best offensive catcher tandem in baseball.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guppyfighter View Post
    Jaso is only going to face righties.
    No kidding.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffy25 View Post
    Yup, he gets his standard rest on games that a lefty starts. It's ideal. Then get a right handed hitting backup to start those other 40 games and you are going to have a very productive offensive catcher position.

    Can you imagine Jaso with Grandal, LuCroy, Gimenez or Flowers?

    It would be the best offensive catcher tandem in baseball.
    In theory, yes. Jaso is bad defensively and according to the Mariners he's even worse when he catches back to back days. He'll have to spend some time at DH and probably only catch 2-3 games a week. Not that big of deal if you have the flexibility to rotate DH a bit, which the Mariners could have easily done and should have done more of last year. Eric Wedge is a stubborn, old-school moron though. You all could imagine how furious Mariner fans were every game Miguel f-ing Olivo started against rhp (a lot).

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