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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by riderfan60 View Post
    Loup has options, so I would expect he'll be in AAA to start the season. AA was talking about Happ starting in AAA which makes more sense than him being a long reliever in the pen. The Jays keep both Cecil and Rogers in the pen and don't have to expose either of them to waivers.

    Pen should be Jansenn, Santos, Oliver, Delabar, Lincoln, Cecil and Rogers.
    If you're running the Blue Jays, and you've decided you're opening your 3-5 year window to compete... are you concerning yourself with retaining sub-par assets like Rogers and Cecil or are you more concerned with getting more quality performances right away so you go with Loup and Happ who are actually good.

    I think some Blue Jays fans need to adjust to the team trying to actually win rather than watching them manage assets.

  2. #32
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    LottOnBaseball

    Oliver: "Not once did I ever demand anything from the Blue Jays or Alex." Agent Jeff Frye's comments annoyed him when he found out.
    Wilnerness590

    Oliver: "I didn't know what to do when those comments came out, sat on it for a while. Eventually reached out to Alex, said it wasn't me."
    BKennedyStar

    Oliver says the #bluejays busy offseason "absolutely" factored into his decision to come back. Was tough to miss playoffs in 2012.
    ShiDavidi

    During Dec meeting, AA told Oliver's wife the lefty could find work in the organization once pitching days are done

    Wilnerness590

    AA: "I was shocked when (Frye's comments) were presented to me, it was completely the opposite of what Darren had presented to me"
    Wilnerness590

    AA: "Janssen, Santos assuming health, and Darren are set. Rogers is out of options, so he's a lock as well."
    BKennedyStar

    AA says Cecil and Happ will have to "compete" for jobs in bullpen. Refers to other guys (Delabar, Lincoln, Jeffress) who have options.
    Wilnerness590

    AA - Lincoln will be stretched out a little bit in Spring Training and will be 7th starter, but that could change as ST moves on.
    ShiDavidi

    AA says Oliver, Janssen, Santos, Rogers are locks. Cecil/Jeffress out of options, must win job, Happ is No. 6 starter, Buffalo possible
    Wilnerness590

    Oliver - Sept. may have just been a bad month, but will look at workout routine, preparation at 42 to make sure that's all it was
    BKennedyStar

    AA says if Brad Lincoln doesn't make the team as a reliever he'll be a starter in Triple-A Buffalo.
    Last edited by fatkev78; 01-16-2013 at 06:30 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    If you're running the Blue Jays, and you've decided you're opening your 3-5 year window to compete... are you concerning yourself with retaining sub-par assets like Rogers and Cecil or are you more concerned with getting more quality performances right away so you go with Loup and Happ who are actually good.

    I think some Blue Jays fans need to adjust to the team trying to actually win rather than watching them manage assets.
    We're talking all kinds of small sample sizes here on both sides, which is why it's not inconceivable that Cecil's a better loogy than Loup. It's not like Loup has a huge track record of success, unless he shows up to Dunedin looking like crap the smart bet is to give the job to Cecil. If he runs with it, awesome, if he fails you've still got Loup as your fallback option. This isn't Adam Lind or something either, we're talking about a very small role on the team.

    Happ's a bit trickier, it's hard to predict what his role would be in the pen and how easily he'd transition back to starting if (probably not an 'if' right?) need be at some point in the season. I'd lean toward leaving him in the rotation in Buffalo, but I can't argue that he wouldn't be a nice luxury as the 7th man out of the pen. Ideally I'd hope that one of Jeffress or Rogers shows up throwing lights out in Spring Training, those are a nice pair of wildcards to have.
    2013

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatkev78 View Post
    LottOnBaseball



    Wilnerness590



    BKennedyStar



    ShiDavidi




    Wilnerness590



    Wilnerness590



    BKennedyStar



    Wilnerness590



    ShiDavidi



    Wilnerness590



    BKennedyStar
    Yes, blame it all on the agent. Take your cycle and leave Frye!
    2013

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    We're talking all kinds of small sample sizes here on both sides, which is why it's not inconceivable that Cecil's a better loogy than Loup. It's not like Loup has a huge track record of success, unless he shows up to Dunedin looking like crap the smart bet is to give the job to Cecil. If he runs with it, awesome, if he fails you've still got Loup as your fallback option. This isn't Adam Lind or something either, we're talking about a very small role on the team.
    Loup doesn't have a HUGE track record of success, but his track record doesn't have any trace of failure to it yet either. The same cannot be said of Cecil who has been primarily a failure.

    I do agree that it's a minor role, regardless of who gets it. I just don't see why the best candidate shouldn't get the job rather than the candidate with the least options at this late stage in the teams development.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    Happ's a bit trickier, it's hard to predict what his role would be in the pen and how easily he'd transition back to starting if (probably not an 'if' right?) need be at some point in the season. I'd lean toward leaving him in the rotation in Buffalo, but I can't argue that he wouldn't be a nice luxury as the 7th man out of the pen. Ideally I'd hope that one of Jeffress or Rogers shows up throwing lights out in Spring Training, those are a nice pair of wildcards to have.
    Well, first and foremost, is Happ even eligible to be sent to the minors without clearing waivers? Isn't there some rule that if you have been in the majors for 5 years that you can't simply be sent down that easily? Either way, why not have him be the new Carlos Villaneuva. Pitch in the pen and transition into the rotation when needed for a start or two.

    It would be quite ideal if someone like Cecil, Jeffress, Rogers, Loup, etc happened to pitch amazing in spring training and forced their way into a spot on the big league club, but absent that I think Loup and Happ have the best track records and seem the most capable. However, you were right that these are relatively minor roles, but it's still better to have the best player even for minor roles.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    Loup doesn't have a HUGE track record of success, but his track record doesn't have any trace of failure to it yet either. The same cannot be said of Cecil who has been primarily a failure.

    I do agree that it's a minor role, regardless of who gets it. I just don't see why the best candidate shouldn't get the job rather than the candidate with the least options at this late stage in the teams development.



    Well, first and foremost, is Happ even eligible to be sent to the minors without clearing waivers? Isn't there some rule that if you have been in the majors for 5 years that you can't simply be sent down that easily? Either way, why not have him be the new Carlos Villaneuva. Pitch in the pen and transition into the rotation when needed for a start or two.

    It would be quite ideal if someone like Cecil, Jeffress, Rogers, Loup, etc happened to pitch amazing in spring training and forced their way into a spot on the big league club, but absent that I think Loup and Happ have the best track records and seem the most capable. However, you were right that these are relatively minor roles, but it's still better to have the best player even for minor roles.
    IIRC, Cecil pitched well last year as a lefty specialist, so let's not get all high and mighty about Loup being far superior to Cecil in the pen.

    Happ does have options and can start in AAA, where AA has stated he sees better value for Happ, pitching on a regular schedule and being ready to step in as a starter when one of the first five starters miss time during the season. I'm kinda shocked you weren't aware of Happ's status.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by riderfan60 View Post
    IIRC, Cecil pitched well last year as a lefty specialist, so let's not get all high and mighty about Loup being far superior to Cecil in the pen.
    "high and mighty" is really an absurd characterization given the context of this conversation. It was a pretty reasonable debate. As for the comparison of performances, last year out of the bullpen, Cecil appeared in 12 games, pitching 11.0 innings with a 5.73 ERA, 3.09 FIP and 4.56 xFIP. Obviously a very limited sample size, but it wasn't flattering. Loup pitched in 33 games, 30.2 innings, with a 2.64 ERA, 1.92 FIP and 3.12 xFIP in a much more reasonable sample size.

    As 2009mvp stated earlier, we're talking about a minor role here but I still don't see a valid reason based on performance to this date for the Blue Jays to pick Cecil over Loup.

    Quote Originally Posted by riderfan60 View Post
    Happ does have options and can start in AAA, where AA has stated he sees better value for Happ, pitching on a regular schedule and being ready to step in as a starter when one of the first five starters miss time during the season. I'm kinda shocked you weren't aware of Happ's status.
    Why does that shock you? I am not intimately familiar with the minutia of the CBA in MLB. I had vaguely remembered hearing something about a player with 5 years of service time in the majors being forced to clear waivers if they were to be sent to the minors for reasons other than injury rehab and I was asking if anyone could confirm it. Still would like to hear someone who knows definitively if this is true or false as I'm still curious about it.

  8. #38
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    This is huge, surprising news. Great news though.
    So if Rogers is a lock, then does the bullpen look like this?

    Janssen
    Oliver
    Santos
    Delabar
    Rogers

    And then Loup, Cecil, Lincoln as extras?


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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtf View Post
    Loup doesn't have a HUGE track record of success, but his track record doesn't have any trace of failure to it yet either. The same cannot be said of Cecil who has been primarily a failure.

    I do agree that it's a minor role, regardless of who gets it. I just don't see why the best candidate shouldn't get the job rather than the candidate with the least options at this late stage in the teams development.
    Well yeah, but Cecil's failures as a starter don't really tell us all that much about his ability to come out of the pen and get let handed batters out. Even his career splits aren't ideal here, (though they are much stronger against LHB) just because starting and relieving are such different beasts. I think they're virtually interchangeable at this point, it just makes sense to keep both in the organization rather than having to let one go.

    Well, first and foremost, is Happ even eligible to be sent to the minors without clearing waivers? Isn't there some rule that if you have been in the majors for 5 years that you can't simply be sent down that easily? Either way, why not have him be the new Carlos Villaneuva. Pitch in the pen and transition into the rotation when needed for a start or two.

    It would be quite ideal if someone like Cecil, Jeffress, Rogers, Loup, etc happened to pitch amazing in spring training and forced their way into a spot on the big league club, but absent that I think Loup and Happ have the best track records and seem the most capable. However, you were right that these are relatively minor roles, but it's still better to have the best player even for minor roles.
    Isn't it hard to do what CV did last year though? I don't even know how you'd find an answer to this, but I'd imagine that hopping back and forth between the pen and the rotation isn't easy. Happ's already a guy that doesn't go very deep into starts anyways, and the rotation obviously won't be nearly as bad as last year when there were a lot of games where the pen was left to eat up 4+ innings. I dunno though, I could be totally wrong there which is why I have a hard time taking a firm stance either way on that part (like you said CV transitioned well, Marcum did it a few years back). The only other reason I'd lean towards having him in Buffalo is that I personally prefer another RHP in that spot, but that's certainly debatable.

    On his options, I haven't seen the nuts and bolts of it but Chisolm and Wilner have both talked about the possibility of having him start the year in Buffalo, and neither are the type to not check those kind of facts before chiming in.
    Last edited by 2009mvp; 01-16-2013 at 07:40 PM.
    2013

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    Well yeah, but Cecil's failures as a starter don't really tell us all that much about his ability to come out of the pen and get let handed batters out. Even his career splits aren't ideal here, (though they are much stronger against LHB) just because starting and relieving are such different beasts. I think they're virtually interchangeable at this point, it just makes sense to keep both in the organization than having to let one go.
    That's fair I guess, Cecil hasn't pitched well in the pen but it is a small sample size. He could easily improve this year. I just think his time is coming to an end unless he actually starts showing improvement for once and I generally like to see players rewarded with more time when they play as great as Loup did last year.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    Isn't it hard to do what CV did last year though? I don't even know how you'd find an answer to this, but I'd imagine that hopping back and forth between the pen and the rotation isn't easy. Happ's already a guy that doesn't go very deep into starts anyways. I dunno though, I could be totally wrong there which is why I have a hard time taking a firm stance either way on that part (like you said CV transitioned well, Marcum did it a few years back). The only other reason I'd lean towards having him in Buffalo is that I personally prefer another RHP in that spot, but that's certainly debatable.
    Happ did what Villeneuva did last year in terms of bouncing between the bullpen and rotation with the Jays in limited opportunities. It seemed to do okay, not great but no big disparity in performance when switching from reliever to starter. To be honest, I don't really care if they put him in Buffalo as long as someone isn't playing awful in the pen in that spot, like Jeffress or Rogers.

  11. #41
    Nofear is offline Amish Rake Fighting Champ
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    Though these threads are fun to read, everyone has responded with some type of configuration of the bullpen has been wrong.

    The bullpen makeup is simple; whoever is hurt or not in shape at the end of spring training goes on the DL, the rest make the roster. Arguing Happ vs Cecil vs Rogers vs Loup vs whoever usually never comes into play anyways. You have a bunch of hard throwers and someone is going down. Could be Santos out and all the others are in, its basically a last man standing choice.

    Point is, lets just hope whoever gets and opportunity makes the most out of it and performs at a high level
    Last edited by Nofear; 01-16-2013 at 07:46 PM.

  12. #42
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    I'm optimistic on Jeffress, although I have no real reason to be other than the fact that it's cool to have a guy on your favorite team who throws really, really hard. Also, 100 MPH fastballs after a steady diet of 70 MPH knucklers would be um...fun.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    I'm optimistic on Jeffress, although I have no real reason to be other than the fact that it's cool to have a guy on your favorite team who throws really, really hard. Also, 100 MPH fastballs after a steady diet of 70 MPH knucklers would be um...fun.
    But he's not safe. He's going to have to earn his spot. If he can control his heater, he'll be fun to watch.

    And by the way, those pants, they belong to my dad.And they're not really pants,
    they're Lederhosen



  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nofear View Post
    Though these threads are fun to read, everyone has responded with some type of configuration of the bullpen has been wrong.

    The bullpen makeup is simple; whoever is hurt or not in shape at the end of spring training goes on the DL, the rest make the roster. Arguing Happ vs Cecil vs Rogers vs Loup vs whoever usually never comes into play anyways. You have a bunch of hard throwers and someone is going down. Could be Santos out and all the others are in, its basically a last man standing choice.

    Point is, lets just hope whoever gets and opportunity makes the most out of it and performs at a high level
    Right now that's the way it should be in my eyes. Santos hasn't earned a spot in this pen at all. He definitely has to impress in ST and I really don't think he will. He just whips the ball as hard as he can. If you watched him in his limited time last year, the guy couldn't hit his spots to save his life.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2009mvp View Post
    Yes, blame it all on the agent. Take your cycle and leave Frye!
    Hmmm...I wonder. I don't think agents are that ballsy to do that with-out a ok from the player. Also, it took him a while to come back. Plus, why not fire the agent?

    I think he ok'd it and if AA gave in...all good.

    If it was me and my agent said something as bad as that...I'd be on twitter saying that's not what I want...calling AA saying sorry and doing a few media interviews show how much a striaght up guy I am.

    The timing is just all wrong.

    Anyways...its done...he's back. DH anyone?
    Hey! It'S JoeyBatS

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